Episode 120

Audio in the AI Age

Scott Porch, founder of Big IP, which operates the business side of several popular lifestyle podcasts like The John Campea Show, Happy Sad Confused, Star Wars Explained, discusses that state of podcasting, and how it is morphing. He acts as something of a talent manager in expanding these podcasts into more well rounded media companies, with revenue coming from memberships and events. The growth of these businesses will not be driven by ads necessarily. "Podcasters are influencers in a lot of respects and they monetize like an influencer in a lot of respects,” Scott noted.

Skip to topic:

  • 00:00 Navigating the Complex World of Podcasting and Monetization
  • 01:25 Introducing Scott Porch: The Podcasting Pro
  • 02:31 The Intricacies of Podcast Production and Distribution
  • 07:33 Exploring the Podcast Landscape: Growth, Challenges, and Opportunities
  • 15:25 The Evolution of Podcasting: From Audio to Multi-Platform Engagement
  • 19:30 The Future of Podcasting: Diversification and Creator Economy
  • 26:25 Understanding Podcast Subscriptions and Membership Models
  • 35:06 The Realities of Podcast Touring
  • 37:52 Monetization Strategies in Podcasting
  • 42:14 AI's Impact on Podcasting and Content Creation
  • 48:36 The Debate Over Long-Form Podcasts
  • 53:23 Challenges and Strategies in Podcast Distribution
  • 58:50 Sponsorship and Monetization in the Podcast Industry
Transcript
Scott:

I always have great difficulty telling people what I do.

Scott:

And so I'm always kind of going back and looking at the definition I put on the website or the definition on my LinkedIn or whatever.

Scott:

And I mean, I think one of the things that, That you make me think about when you, you talk about doing podcasts, but not really making any money at it is sort of figuring out how to navigate platforms and which ones are for marketing and which ones are for monetization.

Scott:

And sometimes it's both and sometimes it's one at times and another at times.

Scott:

And so I think yours sits in a probably just a different place where, you know, your newsletter, And your dinners and those kinds of things are more your, revenue drivers than your podcast, but you probably a lot of people find you, through your podcast.

Scott:

It's probably a good marketing channel for you.

Brian:

It's not as neat as that though, right?

Brian:

because the, the podcast is not, a wide top of the funnel because podcasting, the numbers are smaller.

Brian:

It's so much easier to, to grow a newsletter than it is to grow a podcast.

Scott:

Well, tell me more because I'm trying to grow newsletters

Scott:

right now.

Scott:

How do you grow a

Scott:

newsletter?

Brian:

All right.

Brian:

Will you tell me how

Brian:

do you do a podcast?

Brian:

Welcome to the Rebooting Show.

Brian:

I'm Brian Morrissey.

Brian:

This week I'm talking to Scott Porch, the founder of Big IP, a podcast studio.

Brian:

I wanted to talk to Scott for a few reasons.

Brian:

One is we've traded notes over the last several months about going from journalism into figuring out how to build a business and also because he knows a ton about the podcast market that I do not.

Brian:

what I find interesting is how podcasting too is diversifying.

Brian:

I mean, just like newsletters, few will stay just in that medium.

Brian:

And podcasting is already blurring into video with YouTube as one of the biggest podcast distribution channels and making money in podcasting is more than just hosts reading discount codes for DTC underwear brands.

Brian:

podcasters are building membership businesses, events, business lines, and more.

Brian:

Scott and I get into this.

Brian:

Really appreciated him sharing his insights and I would love to hear yours.

Brian:

Send me a note at bmrc at the rebooting.

Brian:

com.

Brian:

Now here's my conversation with Scott.

Brian:

Let's get into the actual discussion.

Brian:

I want to get all into, podcasting today with you, Scott Porch, from Big IP Media.

Brian:

Oh, before we get in, Scott, how do you, how do you describe big IP median?

Brian:

What you do.

Brian:

Cause I struggle with this

Scott:

struggle a little bit talking about it because what people sort of understand, you know, when you use a word or a couple of words is a lot easier than what it actually is.

Scott:

I usually say producer.

Scott:

although I think that connotes for most people that I'm involved in a lot of the mechanics of the recording and that sort of thing.

Scott:

And I guess sometimes I say produce and distribute, which is maybe a little closer, although all of these shows have podcast platforms and ad sales that really function more as the distributor.

Scott:

So I think in a lot of ways I sit between a producer and like a talent manager for the show.

Scott:

So I'm dealing with.

Scott:

Kind of all of the business end of everything it takes to make a podcast and grow You know a podcast the way I'm doing it with these shows So that's dealing with their hosting, you know Whether that's Libsyn or Megaphone or whatever and dealing with their monetization and I work with three different ad agencies depending on Each of the shows are exclusive to one of those agencies, but some shows are with one agency and some shows are another.

Scott:

And I'm dealing more recently with touring.

Scott:

So I'm dealing with venues and how all that works and I'm dealing with membership.

Scott:

So monetization and how that works.

Scott:

And I'm having these calls all the time with potential partners, companies that do certain things in marketing like pod role, which I've, been working with.

Scott:

some lately on the marketing side.

Scott:

And so even just picking member full took weeks of like, what does constant contact do?

Scott:

And what does this other one do?

Scott:

And what does member full do?

Scott:

And it, it takes a long time, but that is really the stuff that these creators don't really have time and don't need the expertise to deal with.

Scott:

They just want someone to login for member full

Scott:

and say, this is how we're doing it.

Brian:

So, I mean, you're basically the, the operator side of this particular media sector at the end of the day.

Brian:

I mean, there's people who do the same on like the quote, unquote, the newsletter side and, and these things all blur, right?

Brian:

Because like you're not in, that's why I always, I don't really believe in, in quote, unquote newsletters.

Brian:

So.

Brian:

As like a business model for most people, it's just, it's a distribution.

Brian:

It's a way to distribute content, but very few people stay in newsletters.

Brian:

you know, you, you pretty soon the newsletter becomes a website.

Brian:

There's a podcast, there are events, and then what are you still a newsletter company?

Brian:

I guess.

Brian:

I don't know.

Scott:

for my shows, It becomes a function of what does the newsletter mean?

Scott:

I mean, like for, for what we were looking for, we had to, I had to pick a company that could deal with exclusive audio and also be really good at newsletters and also be really good at CRM.

Scott:

And so some were better than others.

Scott:

And, you know, we wound up settling on Memberful to do that mainly because they were right down the middle of those, Functions they, I can interface other, apps like Stripe or, you know, whatever with the, the, the company I can, do things with the database inside and outside of Memberful's platform.

Scott:

I can send emails, trenched a lot of different ways and I can create.

Scott:

custom audio tranched a lot of different ways.

Scott:

So I think they're, they're going to be, it's going to be more useful to me as I scale it.

Scott:

But I mean, we launched, we're talking here on Thursday the 9th and I launched Broad Bros yesterday on Memberful and they had 50 members

Scott:

as of this

Scott:

morning.

Brian:

So let's just back up.

Brian:

Like what, what, what shows do you rep and describe, describe the biggest ones.

Brian:

I know you're gonna have to choose a few, but, we can't go through the entire roster.

Scott:

Yeah, I work with, I was trying to count them this morning.

Scott:

So I work with, I think right now, 13 shows plus two that are pending contract that we could maybe talk about a little bit, but the biggest shows I work with are.

Scott:

the John Campion show, which is a daily, YouTube sort of film and TV entertainment news show, it would be like comparable to like an hour on CNN, that's just about film and TV news, but, you know, very personality driven and kind of up to the minute of, you know, what's going on right, right before that show, goes out live.

Scott:

And then I'd say the other biggest shows would be the sort of female skew reality TV shows like Bravo Bros and Kempire and Daily Dose of Donna, No Filter with Zack Peter.

Scott:

They're all sort of in and around Bravo reality TV doing some different things.

Scott:

And then more recently, pop apologists and, Kurt

Scott:

Sutter and Katie Segal's projects

Scott:

would

Brian:

So how, how, how, how big is big in podcasting?

Brian:

Cause I, I find we'll get into the whole podcasting.

Brian:

I just, I find it a fascinating space because.

Brian:

There's such a power law.

Brian:

Like it's, it's so easy to have a top 1 percent podcast in the world.

Brian:

If those of those, those who are listening, if, if you want a top 1 percent podcast can have one.

Brian:

You can, it's possible.

Scott:

I would like a couple of those.

Scott:

I'm not sure.

Scott:

I'm not sure if I have a top 1%.

Scott:

I guess it depends on if you mean by.

Scott:

unique monthly audience or unique weekly audience or

Scott:

by

Scott:

revenue

Brian:

There was like, there's like services.

Brian:

They'll like, be like, you're, you're one of the top, like 4%.

Brian:

I'm like, really?

Brian:

I'm like, this podcast is very small.

Brian:

but it just seems like in podcasting, I guess my point is that.

Brian:

Yeah.

Brian:

The big shows are really big.

Brian:

I mean, like the Joe Rogan, the Uberman, like they're just like massive, right.

Brian:

But it doesn't seem like podcasting has like a big middle class.

Scott:

I think there's a layer below Joe Rogan particularly in comedy where there are a lot of podcasts making a million plus dollars a year just from the podcast.

Scott:

Now that might be a combination of their YouTube Google AdSense revenue from the pod, from the YouTube channel that the podcast sits on and their host red revenue from, you know, Libsyn or iHeart or wherever their podcast is based, plus their programmatic revenue from Megaphone or whatever platform that sits on, plus maybe some membership on top of that, you know, so it, And some shows are much more dominant in areas than others.

Scott:

I have one show that does more in membership than all, but one or two of my shows do and host red revenue.

Scott:

So, I mean, they're not all equal.

Scott:

They don't all make their money, the same way.

Scott:

So, but I mean, there are, there are a lot of podcasts that do a

Scott:

million plus dollars,

Brian:

Yeah.

Brian:

So what is, what is the state of the podcast market right now?

Brian:

Cause I, I feel like over the last couple of decades, it's gone through these waves of, of hype and the disappointment and, it just keeps going up.

Scott:

I think there's winners and losers along the way.

Scott:

And you see companies making sort of, changes and you know how their, you know what their business plan is.

Scott:

I mean, like Spotify, for example, bought, you know, megaphone and charitable and several big podcast

Scott:

studios.

Brian:

bought anchor And

Brian:

I'm really pissed about it.

Brian:

Can you explain to me

Brian:

why this podcast gets updated to Spotify, which owns Anchor and rebranded it Spotify for podcasting way before it gets uploaded to Apple?

Brian:

I somehow I don't think that's a coincidence.

Scott:

it's so much worse than, you know, I mean, we could go down the rabbit hole of all of the

Scott:

businesses that Spotify

Scott:

has bought

Brian:

I, Spotify bought this business and it seems like they're okay.

Brian:

Are for the, for, for whatever product team was on, it was Don't improve the product, but just make it more of a pain in the ass, to, actually hook into the dominant podcast platform, which is Apple,

Scott:

So Anchor is now a part of a product at Spotify called Spotify for Podcasters.

Scott:

And Spotify also owns Megaphone, which is now fairly recently, I think it's still in beta, but I have several shows on it capable of doing video.

Scott:

So some shows are doing video through Spotify for Podcasters, which was An anchor product and some shows are now doing video through megaphone and the two platforms.

Scott:

I spend a lot of time trying to resolve

Scott:

bugs between these two platforms.

Brian:

All right.

Brian:

But let's get back.

Brian:

So what is the state of the market?

Brian:

Cause I think it's, it seems like it's evolved a lot.

Brian:

I mean, there's a lot of different business models now when it was just like host, host, read ads, I mean, there's programmatic, there's memberships, there's touring.

Brian:

a lot of people have big like Patreons, but give me the lay of the land.

Scott:

I think the business is in great shape.

Scott:

If you look at the listenership numbers year over year, going back a decade or so, more people are listening to an episode of a podcast every month.

Scott:

Every year that number continues to get bigger.

Scott:

The revenue numbers of what Advertisers are spending in the podcast space continues to get bigger and bigger every year.

Scott:

I think it's supposed to be four billion in 2025 or 2026.

Scott:

So the, the, the gross numbers are moving in the right directions, but you still see these things along the way, like Spotify buying studios and then shutting them down.

Scott:

And then.

Scott:

Cast media where I had some shows in early 2023 going, bankrupt and losing money.

Scott:

And it's like, well, those happened for specific reasons and for specific business decisions or doing things particular ways or getting into particular genres or making bets on minimum guarantees that didn't pan out.

Scott:

But you're always going to have winners and losers, even in growing businesses.

Scott:

I'm, I would say overall, I'm, I'm really.

Scott:

not just optimistic, but as I look at all the numbers, I, you know, I get a lot of confirmation that the business continues to grow.

Scott:

And I hear stuff all the time about individual shows, you know, Giggly squad is a big show.

Scott:

One of the hosts of that as a comedian and the others on the Bravo reality show called summer house.

Scott:

And they're touring right now and it's sold out all over the place.

Scott:

You know, I look at their tour update page and they're adding second shows and second nights and third nights at some of these places.

Scott:

And so, you know, that's not even captured in the gross revenue numbers that you see from, you know, IAG.

Scott:

Or whoever about, you know, how much money is getting spent on podcasts.

Scott:

That's an entire economy You know over to itself and then over on the direct Monetization side you have shows like bitch sesh, which is a really popular reality tv commentary podcast that has Almost completely left RSS.

Scott:

They, they don't even really do free podcasts anymore.

Scott:

They've got lots and lots and lots of premium subscribers, and that is their business now.

Scott:

So, I mean, you're seeing success in a lot of different areas and in a lot of different ways, and I, I kind of look at all of that as, which parts of that should we be in or which parts of that are we missing if we don't get into now or if we don't at least learn how to do now.

Scott:

So, yeah, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm very optimistic when I, when I,

Scott:

look at all those things,

Brian:

Yeah, because I, I feel like podcasting is, is, it's well positioned for where media is going.

Brian:

I don't think people, people generally agree that we're between eras, and that where it's going, it's going to be more niche.

Brian:

It's going to be, there's going to be more depth and breadth.

Brian:

And I think podcasting is, is ideal for that.

Brian:

Right.

Brian:

I mean, there's a lot of like drawbacks to, to the podcasting, medium, but I feel like it's well positioned.

Brian:

overall, because of that depth of engagement, I think anyone who's done a podcast, and we were talking about this about, I hear about it all the time, right?

Brian:

Like I, there's numbers on dashboards and yeah, look at the numbers and whatnot.

Brian:

But you should also listen to people, people like always bring up the podcast, of one of several things you're doing, then, That tells me that, that there, it, it builds a connection that other forms of media mostly do not.

Scott:

well, it's very one to one it's, it's passive and active at the same time.

Scott:

I mean, I listen to podcasts.

Scott:

Podcasts when I'm walking the dogs, when I'm mowing the yard, when I'm doing the dishes, when I'm, you know, there are things that you listen to podcasts when you do that are not when you read and not when you watch TV.

Scott:

So there's a, you know, there's a very one to oneness and that respect.

Scott:

And it's, it's a, I mean, it's an intimate medium because it's, it's in your ears.

Scott:

while you're doing other things, so you carry it around, you, you carry it around with you rather than it being kind of a sit down in the living room, you know, experience.

Scott:

So, and then I think sort of what passes for a podcast is changing some right now.

Scott:

I mean, the part of the business that I work in is really the talk format, podcast, but there's the, Sort of scripted narrative part of it where they're trying to get a TV, you know series made and the more in depth Investigative, you know the New York Times limited series kind of end of it I can't speak as much to sort of those two categories, but at least in the talk category that, that I work in the platforms have evolved a lot.

Scott:

And so it's become not just a thing that means two people talking on audio, but two people talking on YouTube and audio platforms and Instagram and premium services.

Scott:

And so it's really, I think becoming recognized more as a format or, a means of, of, of, of,

Scott:

the way people

Scott:

talk, then

Brian:

Yeah.

Brian:

It's kind of where you start.

Brian:

I think that was the part I had about like newsletters, cause newsletters mostly, they morph into all kinds of different things.

Brian:

and I, it seems like podcasts is, it's kind of similar, right?

Brian:

I mean, you started in podcasts, but then, then the podcast is on video and I'm watching like all in.

Brian:

and then there's an event, you know, and it's sort of, I guess that's what you call it.

Brian:

A big IP, not big podcast.

Brian:

Right.

Scott:

and that really came from the coverage area, you know, most of my shows are in, commenting on film and television, and sort of, you hear the term big IP referring to franchises, and most of my shows cover franchises, whether it's Bravo or Star Wars or whatever, so that's kind of where the name came from, but, Yeah, I think you're seeing it go all over the place, now from a platform standpoint, starting in, like all of the shows that I work with started in one area of dominance or the other.

Scott:

I mean, most of them started on YouTube.

Scott:

A few of them started on audio, but then they went the opposite direction.

Scott:

So, I mean, all of these shows are on YouTube and audio now, but a few of them are closer to 50 50, but most of them are very dominant YouTube shows or very

Scott:

dominantly audio

Scott:

shows.

Brian:

So just on the YouTube, cause this is one of those things where I'm like, are people really watching podcasts?

Brian:

Is that, is that passive listening or is that actually viewing and what, what's the mix there?

Brian:

I know it depends.

Brian:

And some people will want to watch people.

Brian:

I just, it seems very strange that YouTube has become such a big podcast distribution platform.

Scott:

depend.

Scott:

We get better metrics from what people are watching versus listening from Spotify.

Scott:

And my experience with Spotify is that shows on video about a third of the consumption is coming from from video.

Scott:

So even when shows are are displayed As available in video, two thirds of the people on Spotify are still just listening to them with the video off.

Scott:

I think on YouTube it's more about the distribution channel than it is about the video.

Scott:

Although the video is important for some podcasts, I think it's more about YouTube being a dominant platform for podcast distribution because it's a dominant platform for everything distribution.

Scott:

It's the same reason a show can like not get any attention on one streaming service, but then as soon as it's on Netflix, everybody's talking about it.

Scott:

I think YouTube is that for a

Scott:

lot of podcasts.

Scott:

Oh,

Brian:

the like fake podcast interview ads?

Scott:

you're talking about A.

Scott:

I.

Scott:

A.

Scott:

I.

Scott:

Red

Scott:

ads that

Brian:

No, no, no.

Brian:

so, so people are, are making ads as if they're being interviewed on a podcast.

Brian:

they're just, they're, they're

Scott:

oh, yeah, yeah, I have seen that.

Scott:

So making it look like they're important

Scott:

enough for

Brian:

Right.

Brian:

Yeah.

Brian:

Yeah.

Brian:

They've got the

Scott:

Oh, yeah,

Scott:

yeah, Yeah.

Scott:

yeah,

Scott:

I have

Brian:

I

Brian:

was joking on one

Brian:

of my podcasts that that could be a business model.

Scott:

And that is a look.

Scott:

I mean, there's a, you know, you've got the headphones and the microphone

Scott:

that

Scott:

comes down from the ceiling and yeah.

Brian:

I'd like to lose the headphones.

Brian:

I don't like the headphones.

Brian:

that's me.

Brian:

I think overall that's, that's part of the diversification story and, you know, the diversification from, just audio and just into like video into live events, um, sometimes into, TV, but the business model is diversifying too, right?

Brian:

Because I think when, when a lot of people talked about the podcast business, they were talking about podcast advertising, the ad business.

Brian:

There's, there's more to just that, to podcasting than just advertising now.

Scott:

And this is where I think you may have been talking about this on the, people versus algorithms the other day, or maybe on one of your podcasts about that podcasters kind of fit into influencer and, and a lot of respects and they monetize like an influencer influencer.

Scott:

and a lot of respect.

Scott:

So, yeah, I mean, it's a, it's a diversification from a podcaster's standpoint, but it's the same thing that's happening on like TikTok They're all looking at, they're all on one platform or starting on one platform and looking at all of the other platforms as, Should I be there?

Scott:

Should I be there for monetization?

Scott:

Should I be there for getting a foothold?

Scott:

Should I be there because the money's better or because some studio wants to pay me to start there?

Scott:

Or so I think I think that's not just a thing that people on the podcast side are going through.

Scott:

I think I think

Scott:

everybody.

Brian:

yeah, I don't know, there's a, there's a form of media that's emerging that is, I think sometimes it's called creators, sometimes it's called influencers, but this is an awkward term in a lot of areas, because it, it just has connotations of, of selfies and, and whatnot.

Brian:

but I think that there's this form of media built around individuals that is emerging that, like you said, is more.

Brian:

akin to like talent management than like ad sales, you know,

Scott:

Well, that's why I don't deal.

Scott:

I don't have any expertise in selling ads.

Scott:

So you know, I have a partner that deals with that Part of it where you see some other, studios, even, you know, medium sized studios will have their own ads in house.

Scott:

So, I mean, I think some of that has just been figuring and like some talent agents have their own house and some of them use somebody else.

Scott:

And probably you see the same thing with, you know, newsletters and everything else that everybody's trying to figure out what their.

Scott:

leverages or what their expertise is to bring to creators on sort of the management and distribution,

Scott:

side that I

Scott:

sit

Brian:

Yeah.

Brian:

I mean, I think it's closer to that than it is to, okay, how do I recreate the publisher function?

Brian:

Cause I go back to the blogs era and federated media was going to take all the publisher function from the bloggers and enable them to keep blogging and make money off it.

Brian:

And they were going to be able to do The ad sales and handled the technology infrastructure.

Brian:

CMSs were more complicated then.

Brian:

And, I think they were going to also do, event infrastructure stuff.

Brian:

And whereas now, and a lot of the successors to those bloggers are either like podcasters or newsletter writers, that there is, there isn't as much need for that.

Brian:

I feel like the need is more akin to talent management.

Scott:

Well, the big distinguisher I think of like creator economy versus traditional media is almost everyone in the creator economy owns their stuff.

Scott:

And almost everyone in traditional media, Doesn't, you know, and sometimes you see people, you know, a reporter leaves MSNBC, Mehdi Hassan and can find his own sort of niche and, in a direct to consumer model.

Scott:

But when he was at MSNBC, he doesn't own that show.

Scott:

And so I think that's a big distinction between traditional media and creator media as they are looking for people to help them with the ad sales or the marketing or the newsletter or the whatever and on the traditional media side Someone else always took care of that stuff They were just the they were the talent or they were the writer or the editor or whatever, but someone else Took

Scott:

care of the business end of things and I think A lot of creators that spend a lot of time trying to sort through and figure out all that stuff on their own, figure out that being a creator is hard enough, you know, without having to deal with all of the platform and the business end of it.

Brian:

Yeah.

Brian:

And then it's just fight over the economics at that point.

Scott:

you see the independence all the time though, because big podcasts will leave podcast networks and go to other podcast networks.

Scott:

And so, I mean, That's not something that a TV show, I mean it can, but that's not something that a TV show generally does.

Scott:

You know, we're going from one network to another because the people that run that TV show or are in that TV show don't own it.

Scott:

Someone else is making those decisions, but podcasts do it all the time.

Scott:

a two year contract is up at Wondery and they They own the show.

Scott:

They can do

Scott:

that.

Brian:

yeah, I mean, that's a, I mean, just the leverage is more on the side of the person making the content in this, right.

Brian:

And I think that's different, like you said, from traditional media, but I think that's the direction.

Brian:

A lot more media will be going.

Brian:

I mean, you're seeing it across all kinds of different areas.

Brian:

where, if for instance, like the, the amount of money going to like the sports stars, you know, messy is, is, is far different than what it was when it was like Maradona.

Brian:

And that's because they recognize the leverage and the power that they have.

Brian:

It's not across the board.

Brian:

I mean, there's.

Brian:

But, for the top and, I think you're seeing it like in podcasting and beyond is, yeah, I mean, people can, can make a go of it.

Brian:

as long as they have the right infrastructure around them.

Scott:

And you see I mean, you see people sort of figuring it out all the time.

Scott:

I mean, I think there's still a big information imbalance with creators in the business who don't know what's available or don't know how much more money, you know, they could make doing one thing than another.

Scott:

So you'll see, I mean, I talk to YouTube creators all the time who have No idea that podcast CPMs are sometimes multiples more than what they're getting paid per thousand views on Google AdSense.

Scott:

And so, most of the creators I work with control their own Google AdSense because they came to me later.

Scott:

they already had that.

Scott:

They didn't know how good the podcast CPMs were, so we, we're now monetizing those shows as podcasts in addition to what they're making as, you know, as YouTube channels.

Scott:

And it's the same thing with subscription and touring and, everything else.

Scott:

They, there's money out there to be made, but, they kind of need a Sherpa to sort of

Scott:

help navigate that

Scott:

stuff.

Brian:

So explain, you know, memberships and subscriptions in podcasting because, I mean, I, I mean, Apple has an ability to do it, but it's, it's always been, it's always struck me as it's been more difficult to have a subscription model in podcasting.

Brian:

Just technically difficult.

Scott:

I have three shows that use Apple Podcasts subscriptions.

Scott:

one of them has almost 500 subscribers and the other two are in the three hundreds.

Scott:

We've started all three of those within the last six months or so, so they've grown some and are finding an audience there so that the technical part of that.

Scott:

It's actually pretty easy because it's all on platform.

Scott:

You know, I've got a producer account through Apple podcast connect.

Scott:

I set up that part of the show, they get a login, they're able to upload those premium episodes directly to the, Apple podcast connect platform.

Scott:

And they go out and, you know, we get paid that.

Scott:

So that part is technically easy.

Scott:

And the, the, the premium part that people do other ways, whether it's through Patreon is probably the most popular, member full and then there are a lot of podcast specific ones that will create a link that goes into your podcast player, you know, either Apple podcasts or Spotify for the most part, and some of those can be more.

Scott:

Technically cumbersome, but I think that part of the business has gotten a lot better over the last couple of years.

Scott:

It's, it, it, most of my time when I was figuring out which partner to use wasn't about which one is technically easier or you know, it was really more about the other factors.

Scott:

They're all pretty easy to use on the user end and on the

Scott:

consumer end right now.

Brian:

Are consumers willing to pay for podcasts?

Brian:

I mean, they're, they're, they're willing to pay for lots of different types of media.

Brian:

I just wonder whether that it's like a, a quote unquote, normal thing to pay for a podcast.

Scott:

it is.

Scott:

And I think it's surprising to a lot of people the degree, to which it is.

Scott:

And we include it in our messaging a lot, even on the ad supported side.

Scott:

I think even going back several years ago with John Campion show, we always add.

Scott:

You know, every few episodes after one of the ad blocks that, you know, remember that supporting our podcasts, you know, supporting our sponsors as a way of directly, you know, supporting the podcast.

Scott:

This is, you know, how we're able to bring these episodes, to you live on YouTube every day.

Scott:

Or, you know, we include that in our messaging and we're doing it now with.

Scott:

you know, with shows going into membership, Bravo's when we wrote their, talking points, they started talking about it on their episodes this week.

Scott:

One of the very first things they say is that, this is a way of directly supporting the show and people want to do it.

Scott:

That's why they come to the live shows.

Scott:

That's why they buy the t

Scott:

shirts.

Scott:

That's why

Scott:

I

Brian:

Well, that's what I, yeah, that's what I wonder is I, again, I go back to this individual media because there's, there's tremendous upsides to having a media brand that is, It's tied to an individual or, or a specific group of individuals versus a faceless institutional brand where you can swap into individuals.

Brian:

you know, you don't have as much equity, long term equity

Scott:

that was luminary.

Scott:

Do you remember luminary?

Brian:

yeah, I

Brian:

remember it.

Scott:

So the whole point of luminary was supposed to be, we're going to get all these creators together and it's going to be ad free.

Scott:

And it's going to be this premium stuff that you can't get on podcast platforms.

Scott:

And I think it didn't work because you, there wasn't a direct connection between the money you were spending and the individual creator you wanted to listen to.

Scott:

I, you know, I couldn't give my 5 a month directly to the show that I was signing up to luminary to listen to.

Scott:

And I, I don't, I think that's why it didn't

Scott:

work.

Brian:

Yeah, I think that's a good point.

Brian:

I mean, what I think about is like sort of like newsletters, because I think newsletters and podcasts have similar dynamics in some ways and, and they're very like personal driven, but you look at like something like letters from an American, Heather Cox, Richardson's, newsletter and she doesn't, as far as I can tell, she doesn't actually give any benefits to hers and she's got, she's like one of the most popular paid sub stacks out there.

Scott:

You, you mean beyond, beyond being able to read things that free

Scott:

subscribers can't read?

Brian:

no, people want to just support it.

Brian:

and that's why I think podcasting.

Brian:

And tell me if I'm wrong, I feel like paid podcasting really did well on Patreon compared to other forms of media.

Brian:

it seemed like the Patreon, top list was like filled with podcasters.

Brian:

Cause I, I say this because John McDermott, who used to, who used to work with me, I, I, I made some offhand comment that like, Oh, podcast, he's never figured out subscription models.

Brian:

He's like, we'll go Patreon.

Brian:

So

Brian:

I

Scott:

Patreon got there early and figured it out and made it easier for people to message, you know, in their podcast that if you want to support the show, it's on Patreon.

Scott:

Patreon, and it was easy to find these shows and all these things.

Scott:

And I think there is, like pop apologists, when I, when we very first started talking about with them about whether to do Apple podcast subscriptions, their immediate concern was, but what if it cannibalizes Patreon where the fees that we're paying to the distributor are lower than what they will be through Apple?

Scott:

And I said, well, I don't think that's going to happen because.

Scott:

People are kind of particular to their platform.

Scott:

And so people that you're getting on Patreon probably subscribe to another Patreon and people that you're going to get on Apple podcasts are probably subscribing to some other show on Apple podcasts.

Scott:

That's how they get their podcasts.

Scott:

And that's what's happened.

Scott:

Their Patreon has continued to grow and now their Apple podcast is growing and it's grown every month since we launched it.

Scott:

And that's coming only from people

Scott:

that listen to Apple podcasts.

Brian:

but I wonder if it's almost like a different, not just a different audience segment of an almost psychographic, right?

Brian:

cause it's like Patreon, you think about, at least I think about Patreon and maybe other people don't, I think about it as like supporting someone, right?

Brian:

Like it's, it feels less transactional.

Brian:

I guess that was the point I made.

Brian:

whereas if I'm using Apple pay or anything app, it's, it's, this is, this is a transaction, man.

Brian:

I'm like paying to get something.

Scott:

Yeah, I think if Luminary is on one side of like, I don't see how this money is getting to the creator and Patreon is all the way to the other side of, I feel like this is going directly to the creator with just a small commission going to Patreon.

Scott:

Apple Podcasts kind of sits in the middle, you know, they take a bigger commission, but the other is going directly, to the creator.

Scott:

So, I mean, all things considered, I would rather have someone who wants to support a show.

Scott:

Support them on member full than on apple podcasts.

Scott:

And I think on some of these newer, these shows that we, broad bros has just launched on member full and a few others are getting ready to launch.

Scott:

I think we're probably going to hold out a little longer on apple podcasts for those shows because I want to signal that it's a A better way to support them is, the, the more direct path where they make more of the money and we get better contact with, with the, with, you know, with the,

Scott:

listener.

Brian:

So which is the dominant form of, of consumer revenue in podcasting?

Brian:

Is it, is it a freemium model?

Brian:

I mean, cause we, there's all kinds of different subscription models.

Scott:

Yeah, it is.

Scott:

You post your podcast once a week or twice a week or whatever on RSS and then your

Scott:

premium is

Scott:

separate.

Scott:

So

Brian:

is the, the draw is

Brian:

you're going to get more because I always just wonder whether people really want more.

Scott:

well, they listen to it.

Scott:

I mean, I thought a lot of these people do want more, but I think it's a way for them to directly support the show.

Scott:

Also, I mean, like no filter was Zach Peter.

Scott:

He does his show in the mornings, Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, and Thursday, and then he does a premium episode on Thursday night that he records for YouTube members.

Scott:

So Only his YouTube members for his channel.

Scott:

And then we post the audio of that on Apple podcast subscriptions the next morning and people, his subscribers listen to that.

Scott:

I can see the numbers in my console from, from Apple.

Scott:

It's a little harder to tell on an individual basis, if they're watching on YouTube or listening to the audio, but yeah, they definitely, they definitely do.

Scott:

But I think more than that, it's just the way to directly

Scott:

support

Scott:

them.

Scott:

The show, and the shows market that they're like, this is what I do for a living.

Scott:

And if you want to support the show, this is the, this is the best way to do it.

Scott:

Or the ones that are doing the best job.

Scott:

I think of messaging.

Scott:

That's, that's

Scott:

what they're

Scott:

communicating.

Brian:

yeah, for sure.

Brian:

And, and do you have any shows like in your portfolio that make more money from non advertising sources than

Scott:

I do.

Scott:

I

Scott:

do.

Brian:

Hmm.

Brian:

That's interesting.

Brian:

And is that, is that usually from memberships, touring?

Scott:

It is in the case of this one.

Scott:

So touring is something that Kempire and Bravo Bros are both doing some

Scott:

touring,

Scott:

right

Brian:

When we're talking touring, it sounds

Brian:

very fancy, but like, I

Brian:

think

Scott:

is not

Scott:

fancy.

Brian:

it's like, that's what I've heard.

Brian:

Like, it sounds like touring and it was like, anyone, anyone has, I've never been on a book tour cause I've never written a book, but

Scott:

it's a lot like

Scott:

that.

Brian:

okay.

Brian:

It's closer to a book tour than it is like Taylor Swift.

Scott:

These are mostly in comedy club, small venue, nightclub, small auditorium type spaces.

Scott:

But now the bigger shows, like Giggly Squad right now, they're touring.

Scott:

big venues, Gale Yard Auditorium in Charleston is where the opera plays.

Scott:

That's where their show, you know, is going to be and, and Charleston.

Scott:

So some venues are doing the bigger, most of my shows that were the two shows that we've started touring.

Scott:

We do like green room 42 in New York, which I think seats 150 and we doing a city winery and like

Scott:

Philadelphia union

Scott:

stage

Brian:

know there.

Brian:

I thought there were only in New York City

Brian:

wineries in

Scott:

city wineries are all over the

Scott:

place.

Scott:

There's one in Nashville.

Scott:

Yeah.

Scott:

There's.

Brian:

like cheesecake factory.

Scott:

there's, three in New York.

Scott:

They've got

Scott:

one

Scott:

in upstate and one on the west

Scott:

side.

Scott:

And

Brian:

yeah,

Brian:

There's one on the river now.

Brian:

think that's the same one.

Scott:

and they've got one, they've got two in Chicago.

Scott:

They're in a lot of places and that's become a really popular podcast venue is city winery.

Scott:

Cause they, and if you look on one of their schedules, you see a lot of, it's basically a combination of small music acts and podcasts, and sometimes you see book events and those things and comedians, but it's, yeah, podcasts

Scott:

Yeah.

Scott:

But

Brian:

I did an award show.

Brian:

I did an award

Brian:

show at them.

Brian:

There's someone got taken out by a dodgy treats.

Brian:

So something, but I don't know if it was city winery, so I don't want to, they

Scott:

But to answer your question about the monetization, we're making a little bit of money on these tours, these 150 seat, 175 seat venues.

Scott:

the creator and I are definitely coming out of that night with, you know, making enough money to pay for the, you know, the travel and, and, and whatever.

Scott:

But those are two East Coast shows.

Scott:

We're mostly doing East Coast venues.

Scott:

We're mostly doing small venues.

Scott:

We mainly want to learn how to do that.

Scott:

do it and learn how to navigate it and get better at it, grow a presence in each of those markets where we're touring so that we can come back and do larger venues.

Scott:

But yeah, the shows that are making, you know, that are doing the thousand, 2000, 3000 seat venues.

Scott:

I mean, some of those, yeah, some of those shows can make 25, 30, 000

Scott:

a night touring

Brian:

Yeah, that's great.

Brian:

so what is the, what's what's the fastest growing part of the podcast business?

Scott:

as far as genre.

Brian:

No, I mean like monetization of the, the business side.

Brian:

I mean, is it still, what I wonder is, whether there's like a shift away from like programmatic ads or from hostry read ads, whether subscriptions are going to, are, are becoming a bigger part of it.

Scott:

I think subscription will be maybe 15 or 20 percent of my business in three years where it's essentially 0 percent of my business.

Scott:

You know, just a little bit of my business now and touring.

Scott:

It's hard to say whether that sits more on the marketing side or more on the revenue side.

Scott:

I mean, I guess as some of these shows get bigger, it becomes more, revenue.

Scott:

But, I think.

Scott:

Membership and touring together are definitely going to be a bigger share of creator revenue.

Scott:

But also, just getting bigger makes a huge difference because You know, you go from 10, 000 followers to 50, 000 followers on YouTube and your Google AdSense revenue goes up a lot.

Scott:

I mean, there are shows making 15, 20, 30, 40, 50 thousand dollars a month, you know, on Google AdSense revenue and same thing on the host red side, you know, what you're billed at for a 25, 000 show is.

Scott:

is arithmetically, different than 250, you know, 50, 000 is five times less than 250, 000.

Scott:

So, I mean, you definitely make a lot more money as you scale up and sort of the quality of the ad sales makes a difference too, because A show that can fill 75 percent of its host red revenue makes 50 percent more than a show that can only fill 50 percent of its host red revenue.

Scott:

So, the quality of the ad sales, the, the actual sales can make a huge difference

Scott:

from, you know, From from one year

Scott:

to

Brian:

Yeah.

Brian:

And so host read ads are still the predominant form of advertising in podcast versus programmatic, or just like sort of, I don't want to say generic, but I've always found podcasting a little bit charming in a way.

Brian:

Cause I was meeting with an agency executive, earlier this week, actually in New York, and he was saying to me, he was like, you know, It's so weird now.

Brian:

Everything's audience targeting.

Brian:

We never, we never see the ads.

Brian:

We work, like, all of our, so much on, these ad campaigns.

Brian:

We never actually see them.

Brian:

They don't, they exist on, on, dashboards and in spreadsheets.

Brian:

But because they're so, audience targeted, We don't see them.

Brian:

Like it almost feels like they don't exist.

Brian:

You know what I mean?

Brian:

And I always felt that podcasting was like almost an antidote to that very mechanized world of, the way the digital advertising world has become.

Scott:

mean I have mixed views about programmatic on most of the shows that I work with.

Scott:

It is less revenue than the host read by quite a lot, but it's also not nothing.

Scott:

And for a lot of shows that have a big catalog or that are actively cataloged shows like movie deep dive shows and you know, those sorts of things where the catalog might do really well.

Scott:

I mean, a lot of those shows, you know, might make 20, a month on programmatic if they're big enough shows with a Big enough catalog, the, the ads just sort of disappearing.

Scott:

Is, is interesting though.

Scott:

I mean, we're, you know, as we as Spotify, so some of my shows are host, most of my shows are hosted on Megaphone, which is owned by Spotify.

Scott:

And as they're transitioning to video, the ads are also eventually gonna transition to video.

Scott:

So where right now, if you listen to a podcast on.

Scott:

Spotify that's hosted on Megaphone, you're, for the ads, you're mostly going to see like a card, you know, like a piece of art of the brand or the show or whatever on the screen.

Scott:

But I mean, over the course of this year, those are going to become video and they're telling us that we're even going to be able to do our own post red ads that we do in video, which, you know, something we can already do on YouTube and, and, and already do a lot.

Scott:

Yeah.

Scott:

on

Scott:

YouTube.

Scott:

So

Brian:

Interesting.

Brian:

so how's AI going to affect this field?

Brian:

I have to ask the AI question.

Brian:

I have to get a sponsor for that.

Brian:

because you know, I've seen, I know I did, I saw Reid Hoffman interviewing an AI version of himself.

Brian:

I didn't, I didn't actually listen, but, I'm not sure if that's that compelling.

Brian:

I've seen, I've seen talks about Spotify using AI, I guess, to like clone people's voices for ads.

Scott:

that's the one area, being able to basically do your own ADR, you know, being able to fix things with, with AI or doing your ads, in AI.

Scott:

I think the other one and one that we haven't pulled the trigger on yet because the translation is still pretty expensive, but that we're looking at for a couple of shows.

Scott:

is translating shows into foreign languages because AI is really good at that at at getting the inflection and the specific, you know, sort of pronunciation quirks of a speaker from English into, Mandarin or Hindi or Spanish or whatever, it's still really expensive per minute to do that.

Scott:

And with high volume, you know, a show that does a an hour every day or a couple of hours a week, it's still really, really expensive just to translate that into one language because once you've got it in that language, you're kind of starting all over again, you launch a new YouTube channel in Spanish or you launch a new podcast in Spanish.

Scott:

So I mean, it's, It's definitely an investment, but I think as the cost

Scott:

comes down, you'll see

Scott:

more people

Brian:

yeah.

Brian:

I don't know, maybe I'm skeptical of that.

Brian:

I mean, if you don't understand the language, then it's better than nothing because other, it's like dubbing, I mean, for a long time, movies in other markets, English language movies were dubbed.

Brian:

Right.

Brian:

And like most, most markets moved away from that because they ended up having like a propensity of people who understood English.

Brian:

And they just found it maddening if a movie was dubbed.

Brian:

And I wonder, podcasting can be, I think a big thing is the, the connection to the hosts, particularly in, you know, host driven.

Brian:

podcast that listening to an AI translation wouldn't be the same, but maybe, I don't know.

Scott:

So, I mean, the, the like podcast, business guy hopes that's right.

Scott:

You know, and that we stay ahead of the technology and particularly as AI kind of starts infiltrating other

Scott:

areas of people's

Scott:

lives

Brian:

I just want a pastoral podcast existence, Scott.

Brian:

That's what I'm saying.

Brian:

You're like, I got to scale this thing,

Scott:

But like if you listen to, Bill Simmons or Brené Brown or whoever, I, do you, I don't think you want an AI.

Brian:

Yeah.

Scott:

of that.

Scott:

I don't, I don't want like max headroom, the podcast.

Scott:

I don't, I don't, I don't want to listen to that.

Scott:

But you know, I mean, back to your point on dubbing, do you think people like it because the lips don't match the audio because that the technology is getting better with that part.

Scott:

And I, my wife and I were talking about that the other day, would we still want to watch a

Scott:

French movie

Brian:

no,

Scott:

if their mouths looked exactly like they were speaking

Scott:

English?

Brian:

no,

Scott:

Even if it was perfect.

Brian:

No.

Brian:

Absolutely not.

Brian:

Do not want any dubbing of movies.

Brian:

This is like, this is very American, I think.

Scott:

But I think.

Scott:

that could be

Scott:

interesting

Brian:

It's like not eating the whole fish, you

Brian:

know?

Scott:

Americans read the subtitles, but a lot of other countries, you know, European, Asian countries, you know, they, they, they like dubbing better than subtitles.

Scott:

So, I mean, I, I think we're kind of, we're kind of

Scott:

holdouts.

Brian:

I used, the subtitles in Game of Thrones, I have to admit.

Brian:

This

Scott:

British shows all the time.

Scott:

Cause I can't understand their accent.

Brian:

American hour.

Scott:

I just finished, Baby Reindeer with subtitles on so I could understand

Scott:

what they're saying.

Brian:

But is, are we going to see like a flooding of AI generated podcasts?

Brian:

Cause I mean, I, Peter Kafka was on one of my podcasts and he called for a tsunami of crap, so I have to give him credit for that.

Brian:

but I, I would assume that we're going to, we're going to have AI generated everything flooding the system.

Brian:

Are there already a lot of AI generated podcasts or

Brian:

is

Scott:

I don't think so.

Scott:

I mean, not that I'm aware of.

Scott:

I mean, I could see where there, that is something that maybe would happen.

Scott:

I don't, I mean, you talk about the inshittification of digital media a lot of times.

Scott:

Where I hear that in podcasts is just too much programmatic.

Scott:

Just too much.

Scott:

You know, there's that podcast that, Jeff Garland is doing about the history of Curb Your Enthusiasm.

Scott:

And I listened to the first seven or eight episodes of it and it was just, I just crumbled under the weight of the programmatic ads.

Scott:

It was just, it

Scott:

was just beating me

Scott:

down.

Scott:

There were

Scott:

so many,

Scott:

too many,

Scott:

yes.

Brian:

okay.

Brian:

It's becoming like web, web

Scott:

like like two times the acceptable number.

Scott:

I mean, like way too many.

Scott:

And I eventually checked out on that show, and I mean, I have that conversation with my shows all the time.

Scott:

I have a couple of shows that, or several shows, that don't do pre roll.

Scott:

Programmatic ads because, basically because I think it's bad for discovery.

Scott:

You know, you, you, you find a show and a search result, or you hear about a show and you go listen to it and the first thing you hear is two programmatic ads.

Scott:

I don't, I want the first thing you hear to be the host's voice.

Scott:

But I don't mind paying for premium either, you know, and I buy the premium version of, you know, Netflix without the ads and Disney plus without the ads.

Scott:

You know, I would rather have the better experience than ads, but, you know, I mean, ads are what, pay the bills for my show.

Scott:

So, I mean, I'm not.

Scott:

I'm not insensitive to advertising, but I, I like to integrate it.

Scott:

And yeah, I mean, host read ads are popular with brands because they are like the content.

Scott:

If the host is funny, the ads are funny.

Scott:

If the host is informative, the ads are, they meet the character of the ad.

Scott:

And I don't have nearly the same difficulty listening to those, as I do programmatic ads that I listened to ringer shows and I will hear the same.

Scott:

Carvana, I've heard it a thousand times.

Scott:

I think I've heard that ad a thousand times and like, I don't know that it's benefiting that sponsor for

Scott:

me to hear that ad.

Scott:

So

Brian:

At some point.

Brian:

No.

Brian:

There's a wear out.

Brian:

but who knows where that point is.

Brian:

tell me something about the, the, the long form podcast.

Brian:

What, what, what happened here?

Brian:

I feel like the entire media industry is going towards shorter and short clips and everything.

Brian:

And then, and then I, and then I listened to a six hour Lex Friedman podcasts that was like debating like Israel Gaza.

Brian:

There was, there was no conclusion by

Brian:

the

Scott:

there's a very specific reason for

Scott:

that.

Brian:

okay.

Scott:

More

Scott:

ads.

Brian:

No, he does all the ads at the beginning,

Scott:

I don't know.

Scott:

I don't

Scott:

know that show specifically,

Scott:

but a

Brian:

no, I'm just more for the user behavior that like, I find it very, and maybe it's just a few of you know, a few podcasts that do this, but that it seems like podcasts are almost getting longer than shorter,

Scott:

the divide between audiobooks and podcasts has certainly narrowed a lot.

Scott:

And I mean, you see it with Spotify putting audiobooks on the platform now.

Scott:

But Spotify has a show called BandSplain that does deep dives on albums.

Scott:

And they just started a series on Pearl Jam that I have not even started listening to yet.

Scott:

But the first episode is four hours long.

Scott:

And you look at that and you think, Good gosh, that's really long

Scott:

for a podcast.

Scott:

but it's really short.

Brian:

It's, it's, it's worth

Brian:

it.

Scott:

I mean, I listened to I, I think my

Scott:

threshold

Scott:

for

Brian:

Okay, next time someone complains my newsletter is too long, I'm going to be like, it's way shorter than a book.

Scott:

That's right.

Scott:

It's shorter than a book.

Scott:

It's shorter than a New Yorker cover story.

Scott:

I mean, like my podcast or my audio book threshold is about 12 hours.

Scott:

I lose interest in something after about 12 hours.

Scott:

So, you know, I mean, if a podcast is, from a experiential standpoint, if it's the same thing as an audio book, then I don't, I don't have a problem with a four hour, Pearl Jam episode, I think is a practical matter.

Scott:

I don't know their reasons for doing it that way, but I would look at that for one of my shows as.

Scott:

Can't we just make this one part two part three and part four does it have to be one episode that's four hours long But I don't know their business reasons for doing that but it doesn't deter me from listening to Four hours,

Brian:

Yeah, I don't know.

Brian:

It depends on the subject, I guess.

Scott:

but I think for a lot of shows as you see like Dax Shepard or some of these other popular shows Go from like an hour to an hour and a half to two hours an episode.

Scott:

It's so they can create Another mid roll every 20 minutes for two or three more ads.

Scott:

And so a lot of these shows will sell out their inventory, you know, six months or a year in advance.

Scott:

and the only way to, it's like miss more cowbell, you know, the only way to get more ads in this thing is just to

Scott:

jam more, jam more ads in there.

Scott:

So you can, you have to create more places to put them.

Scott:

And I think that's part of the reason it's

Scott:

so much longer.

Brian:

Wow, man.

Brian:

I thought, I thought, I thought they were, I thought it was just some sort of cultural trend, but it's actually just about the advertising.

Brian:

as it, as it turns out,

Scott:

I think a lot of people though, there's definitely a market for that.

Scott:

These three, four hour, you

Scott:

know, deep dive podcasts.

Scott:

I

Brian:

ambient.

Brian:

I mean, it's ambient.

Brian:

So I feel like you can.

Brian:

There's forms of, of podcasting that is less, it's less, I'm trying to accomplish something, right?

Brian:

if you search, if you're like an intent based publisher, which is basically someone who wants to, grab some search traffic and give a specific answer to a question, there's a time and a place for everything.

Brian:

That is the time to give the people, give people.

Brian:

What they, what they're searching for.

Brian:

They literally told you this is this is one of the easier parts of media.

Brian:

Nothing is easy in media, but look, people told you what they're, what they're there for.

Brian:

You don't need to immerse them in, in things like you can just give them what they're, they're looking for.

Brian:

Whereas I feel like there's a different mode that happens with, with podcasting because yes, it's active, but it's also ambient.

Scott:

I think some of these guys like Huberman, Peter Attia, I mean, they would say a two hour episode gives us time to not feel like we're just rushing through the, like the four bullet points of.

Scott:

whatever health topic they're talking about that particular week, but it's sort of gives you time for repetition and for asking the questions and going down the rabbit holes.

Scott:

And I do listen to some of those, but my like I'm not going to listen to a pod.

Scott:

I'm not going to listen to a four hour podcast in one sitting.

Scott:

And I'm frankly not going to watch a Martin Scorsese movie in one sitting either.

Scott:

I mean, I don't, I like, I love a three hour movie.

Scott:

I'm not going to watch that whole thing in one day.

Scott:

I'm going to chop it up in little pieces.

Scott:

And so I've got an audio book on my audible account right now that I've been listening to for a couple of weeks.

Scott:

And I've got.

Scott:

Spotify is really good about showing you your half eaten podcasts at the top of your queue and pick one of those and finish it.

Scott:

Or if it's one of my podcasts that I always like to listen to when it comes out, I'll skip, skip ahead and listen to that one and then come back to the other one

Scott:

that I was listening

Scott:

to.

Brian:

So final question is about distribution, right?

Brian:

I feel like podcast distribution has been a challenge from, from the beginning.

Brian:

I mean, there's a ton of podcasts.

Brian:

There's not, clear, distribution channels like there are for like websites.

Brian:

I mean, all the, that's all sort of being thrown up in the air lately.

Brian:

Is it possible to grow?

Brian:

I mean, I, it is possible, right?

Brian:

Like Andrew Uberman is one of the biggest podcasts out there.

Brian:

And I think he just started a couple of years ago.

Brian:

so it's possible to break through, right?

Brian:

But it strikes me as exceedingly hard to scale a podcast in 2024.

Scott:

From a platform standpoint, I mean, there's a lot of little podcast apps, but from a platform standpoint, Most of the shows I work with, most shows in general are getting 80 plus, maybe 90 plus percent of their total consumption from Spotify, Apple podcasts and YouTube.

Scott:

And so YouTube is probably the easiest one to get from zero to 10, 000, but it's hard and it takes a long time.

Scott:

But I think in general, and so this has changed sort of my sort of development, sort of what kinds of shows I want to do and what kinds of shows I'm working with that.

Scott:

I've really gone from wanting to develop new shows to kind of finding that really, really difficult right now, partly because of the growth part that you're talking about and partly because of it's hard to finance talent.

Scott:

For shows that they're not, you either have to take on that cost to pay them or they have to take on a rev share knowing they're not going to get paid for a while.

Scott:

So I mean, for someone in my position, it's easier to get a show from 10, 000 unique listeners to 20, 000 unique listeners than it is to get them from 0 to 10.

Scott:

from zero to 10, 000, it's easier to get from 20, 000 to 30, 000.

Scott:

I mean, it, it, it, the scale part gets better as you go.

Scott:

Cause you get in the podcast

Scott:

charts, you get mentioned

Scott:

more,

Scott:

you're,

Scott:

it's easier to

Scott:

get

Brian:

it's, it's harder to

Brian:

get to that level where it gets easier.

Brian:

It, it would seem and, and this is, this happens throughout different forms of media.

Brian:

I think in newsletters it's, it can be kind of similar.

Scott:

pop.

Scott:

Apologist was making a great podcast for two plus years that.

Scott:

4,000, 5,000 people an episode were listening to.

Scott:

And in March they did a series on Instagram called, where the Fuck is Kate Middleton that grew their Instagram from 20 something thousand to 260 something thousand followers and their podcast episode that came out the next week.

Scott:

Did 200, 000 listens and they've come back down since then, but they didn't come all the way back down.

Scott:

So, you know, they're, they've got a show that's now multiple times bigger than it was two months ago.

Scott:

And we just signed a distribution deal with Q code for that show.

Scott:

So, I mean, they had kind of a seismic event that grew them really quickly and that can happen for shows.

Scott:

I think the more common model is a show like Broad Bros.

Scott:

They just grow every month.

Scott:

They're making a good show that people like, and people are telling people about it, and it, it,

Scott:

charts on

Scott:

platforms

Scott:

and it

Brian:

I guess that's

Brian:

what I'm saying.

Brian:

It's like how, like anytime like a piece of media, it has prominently, please share this with like your friends and stuff.

Brian:

I'm like, oh man, distribution is broken.

Brian:

And you always see that in newsletters and you know, it can exist in podcasts.

Brian:

And to me, it's always a sign of, of weak distribution.

Scott:

I think most growth comes from the algorithm.

Scott:

You know, most growth, if you're looking for an episode about Taylor Swift's new album, you search, Spotify for Taylor Swift and you know, hopefully you hit the the pop apologist episode where they talked about Taylor Swift and you listen to it and then you listen to another one of their episodes and suddenly you're a listener to that show.

Scott:

I think that's more the model of how podcasts grow then

Scott:

tell a friend about this show.

Scott:

And I mean, I think that happens some, but I, the At least with Spotify, we can see where the traffic is coming from, you know, search versus on platform and I honestly like for shows to stay heavy in that search part of the chart because, that means new people are finding us all the time.

Brian:

Yeah.

Brian:

I mean, are many new people coming into the podcast ecosystem?

Brian:

Cause there's always a question.

Brian:

It's kind of like with newsletters, people are saying, well, there's peak newsletters, too many newsletters.

Brian:

I'm like, well, there's too many of everything.

Scott:

I will say

Scott:

I don't have great metrics on that other than the like survey data where you see the number of people that answer whether they've listened to a podcast in the last week that number continues to get bigger, but like on something like membership, I can tell in member full whether a person who subscribes.

Scott:

To be a member of a podcast is already in memberful system.

Scott:

And the first day of Broad Bros signups, like three quarters of the people who signed up were not already in memberful system.

Scott:

So I think there's people coming into these markets all the time.

Brian:

right.

Brian:

Okay.

Brian:

let's leave it there.

Brian:

this was a lot of fun to go deep into podcasting.

Brian:

I want to do more of these episodes where I talk to people who know a shit ton more about these

Scott:

You need to get a presenting sponsor for your

Scott:

podcast to pay you a lot of money.

Scott:

You

Scott:

know,

Scott:

presented

Brian:

do.

Brian:

The problem is, I mean, this is the problem.

Brian:

Anyone who's listening and wants to be a presenting sponsor, please get in touch, is compared to like other things like the newsletter, like with the newsletter, I can do, and again, it's particular to businesses, right?

Brian:

I can do lead generation.

Brian:

A lot of my clients want to develop leads.

Brian:

So I can do a research report.

Brian:

I can do an online forum.

Brian:

you know, I can use it to collect information about about the audience that can then, you know, fuel like an event I had last night, in New York.

Brian:

and then those do like modernization jobs, but they also do some, community and influence work.

Brian:

And I look at, I look at the podcast as, as kind of marketing at the end of the day.

Scott:

it's a mechanism for reporting for you too.

Scott:

I mean, I see your episodes.

Scott:

filter into things you talk about in other episodes or things you

Scott:

talk about on the other podcast or

Scott:

things

Brian:

it's less as a business,

Brian:

like it's less about monetization.

Brian:

It's not like a, and I've just found this, you know, I did a podcast, my last like employer and you know, I was like, nah, I would always like get like kind of pissed when sales team wouldn't sell stuff.

Brian:

Now that I'm selling, I'm like, I'm very understand, much more understanding.

Brian:

but,

Scott:

Was that Digiday?

Scott:

I think that's where I first was aware

Scott:

of you was the

Brian:

Yeah.

Brian:

Yeah, and, and and it was never, rarely was the podcast sold, right?

Brian:

And I was like, numbers are growing, like the depth is the reality is it doesn't work for a lot of that particular type of advertiser sponsor.

Brian:

They don't have a lot of, data that they want, and they don't have a lot of experience in them.

Brian:

They've never run podcast ads.

Brian:

So, the thing that, that works in this model is sponsor content.

Brian:

for a few of my partners, we have, close relationships, you know, we'll, host an episode with them to get into

Scott:

think partners who want to be in multiple areas of the creator's output is that we've done that a little bit.

Scott:

I mean, Bubbly, which is a Pepsi, brand decided they wanted to be around the sort of reality TV business.

Scott:

And they were working with one of my podcasts.

Scott:

So they would be in mid roll on the podcast and they were sponsoring a couple of tour dates and they were, we did a couple of social engagements with them and so they kind of got wrapped into a lot of different areas of, of

Scott:

that creator's output.

Brian:

Like for me, like there's never like a, not never, I would say there's rarely like a podcast led, program, you know what I mean?

Brian:

Like it's part of programs, but it's never, there's in my area, like nobody's coming to and saying I want the podcast and then we can talk about other things like that.

Brian:

And I think that's just B2B.

Brian:

I don't know.

Scott:

Man, it's, it's where you sit in your, you know, it's where podcasts sit for you in the way you're doing, you know, your business where some people, it may be Instagram may be driving 90 percent of their revenue, but they have a podcast that they're trying to grow or something.

Scott:

I think it's, it's, it really, people are starting on a lot of different platforms and figuring out how to, How to move into or monetize or use for marketing these other

Scott:

platforms as they go.

Brian:

And everything is a different job.

Brian:

I mean, at the end of the day, I look at what I hear from, from people about, and like podcasting is number one or number two.

Brian:

So it tells me that, it plays an important role.

Brian:

That's,

Scott:

Still fairly new too.

Scott:

I didn't really know how to do any of this five years ago.

Scott:

I mean, I was mainly a lawyer and a journalist and started working with some, podcasts at Starburns Audio and got to be friends with Jason Smith who ran Starburns Audio and Learned a lot, not making any money, you know, I mean, just learned a lot kind of working on that stuff on the side and then sort of over time figured out how to do it, but it's, it's a still, you know, I mean, it's a relatively new business as a sort of professionalized thing with, consistent job titles from company to company and it's still, still pretty new.

Brian:

that's true.

Brian:

all right, let's leave it there.

Brian:

Scott, thank you so

Scott:

All right.

Scott:

Awesome.

Scott:

I appreciate

Scott:

it.

Brian:

Really appreciate you taking time.

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