Episode 157
Semafor's Rachel Oppenheim on stakeholder media
Stakeholder media is how a media company can stay influential and build a real business—especially now, when scaled ad models are in a full race to the bottom. Everyone wants to move from passive audiences to active communities. Stakeholder media is a variant. It’s defining features:
- Elite audiences operating in interconnected, complex ecosystems
- Focused media, intentionally not for everyone
- Ability to convene stakeholders with the brand as glue
- Business model geared to long term relationships vs transactions
Rachel Openheim, CRO of Semafor, discussed with me how Semafor is centering its business on stakeholder media, and why that moves events to the center from the periphery.
Transcript
welcome to the Rebooting Show.
Brian:I am Brian Morrissey.
Brian:I've gotten some very nice feedback on recent episodes.
Brian:I'd love to hear that.
Brian:and if you can and you enjoy the show, preferably, leave it a rating and review on Apple or Spotify.
Brian:and also be sure to send me a note with, you know, who you would like to hear from.
Brian:My email address is bmorrisey@therebooting.com.
Brian:Hoping to have different types of guests on here as I sort of try to figure out the contours of the information space.
Brian:I really enjoyed.
Brian:I enjoy all my conversations, but really enjoy the one with Andrew Yaffe from Dude.
Brian:Perfect.
Brian:So I wanna do more of those this week I have a conversation with Rachel Oppenheim, the CRO of SEMA four.
Brian:I've wanted to have Rachel on for a while.
Brian:I can remember when SEMA four was launching, Justin Smith, SEMA four CEO, and one of its co-founders telling me that she was a star.
Brian:And in this episode we discuss starting a sales organization from scratch.
Brian:Why Semaphore has more people on delivery programs rather than selling them and how SEMA four is using its aggressive event strategy for leverage throughout the business.
Brian:Now, I, I think it's very telling that a media brand like SEMA four leans so heavily on events I. You'll not hear from them talking about how they're gonna win at programmatic advertising.
Brian:instead they focus on the power of convening influential audiences.
Brian:Now, this is a bulwark of this new class of media brands that are consumer oriented, but they often.
Brian:Adopt the characteristics of B2B media businesses because those, as I constantly say, are far more sturdy and reliable than
Brian:the scale consumer model, that was relied on in the previous generation, and we don't need to go over the results of that.
Brian:Now SEMA four's events business is far more than a side hustle.
Brian:It is the center of gravity of this business.
Brian:at one point, Justin said that it was about half of revenue.
Brian:I gotta, I gotta double check to see if that is still true.
Brian:But in this episode, you know, we talk, about how it's using a different kind of, revenue model at SEMA four and, and what Rachel call Stakeholder Media.
Brian:And we get into, you know, the architecture.
Brian:of what goes into a modern media business and why events can actually scale.
Brian:I mean, Rachel shares how, the World Economic Summit, you know, which they call the Davos on the Potomac has, you know, become a flagship for them.
Brian:And you know, they're.
Brian:Clearly going after the World Economic Forum.
Brian:And the World Economic Forum is something like a $500 million media business if you really think about it.
Brian:And why shouldn't that have been done by a media company?
Brian:I'm sure that is what they see at Semaphore.
Brian:so we dig into that and the lessons that, Rachel took from starting an editorial and then moving over to the business side, because.
Brian:We both agree that that sales, is more like reporting than most people think, and also, how SEMA four makes the case for engagement overreach.
Brian:Hope you enjoy this conversation now onto my discussion with, with Rachel.
Brian:all right, Rachel.
Brian:Thank you so much for joining me on the podcast.
Rachel:My pleasure.
Rachel:I'm so happy to be here.
Rachel:I was really looking forward to it, and as we were preparing for this, Mira was like, you will be much more successful if you do not prepare.
Rachel:So I'm like, that is not typically possible for me, but.
Rachel:I know when, when Have you ever heard a calm person be like, the way to be successful is to not prepare and just
Brian:Well that, you know, that is the new, I think that's the new comms thing, to be honest with you, because of
Brian:podcasts and the Joe Rogan stuff, and I was listening to Lex Friedman podcast with Ezra Klein and Derek Thompson, who have
Rachel:was it five hours?
Brian:It, it was like, and the, the discussion was, why I don't do five hours, don't worry.
Brian:but the discussion was why, you know, it always, the podcasters always go back to, they're like, oh, the
Brian:Democrats are scared of, like, you know, and I think it was more around, I think Derek Thompson made this point.
Brian:He called a bureaucratic, what is it?
Brian:Bureaucratic caution, like the, the, the, the worry about offending or making some mistake and how.
Brian:In our current media environment like that, that really doesn't matter.
Brian:Mean people are such short memories, like you could do anything right now, we just blow over like.
Rachel:For now, and then I, I'm just like watching the clock.
Rachel:I'm like, I can't, you know, I'm, I am expecting this to, to, to shift back.
Rachel:But yeah, I mean, you've been talking about, just like the authenticity, authenticity, authenticity, and yeah.
Rachel:I mean, I think for a long time you had this like overly sterilized media environment and it's, it's just a little bit.
Rachel:More textured now, I
Brian:and it's gonna swing back.
Brian:Ben and I, Ben Smith and I had a little back and forth, like last week about this,
Rachel:Yeah, he's, he is like the anti sterile, you know, he's just like, whatever.
Rachel:We'll, we're
Brian:he thinks it's gonna swing back to like more of like a professionalism and like the, the, this, like current, I almost, I always say like UGC one and
Brian:there's a lot, and by that I mean like broad, broader than UGC and that there's gonna be more of a, a swing back to.
Brian:You know, professional standards, real reporting, et cetera.
Brian:There right now, it's just like, so much is, I mean, part of it I guess over on the commentary side, but that's, anyway, that's neither here nor there.
Brian:I wanted to have you on to talk about, several things, but one of which is sales.
Brian:So I've been in, in, because you started on the editorial side, and if I had do this over again, I would've had Sarah Fisher on, 'cause she started.
Brian:The sales side.
Brian:I went over the editorial and I was like, that would've been really cool.
Brian:but maybe we can do that at some point in the future.
Rachel:So has Sarah, has Sarah mentioned to you that when she was on the sales side, she's amazing by the way.
Rachel:She was at the New York Times.
Rachel:We worked together.
Rachel:I was sitting, not in sales at that point and watching her operate.
Rachel:With just like the level of smarts and perseverance and like actual strategy convinced me that there was more to sales than what I thought.
Rachel:And she, you know, and other many others, but was definitely one of the folks who I saw and said to myself.
Rachel:I think I should try this.
Rachel:I think that there's something here.
Rachel:so yes, it was very funny to see her go from sales to edit and no, I mean, I, I told this to Ben early in our conversations about semaphore.
Rachel:I really wanted to be a reporter.
Rachel:Like this was, this was the focus, this was the goal.
Rachel:I am and always have been a journalism junkie, and that is just who I am.
Rachel:And, you know, just became, I think.
Rachel:Too curious, like maybe like you in some ways, like just about the business model and wanted to get closer to that machine.
Rachel:but when I spoke to Ben early in this process, we kind of joked about the fact that to be in sales or to be a reporter, like very much the same job in, in some respects, certainly many differences.
Rachel:but a lot of the, the skills and like idiosyncrasies are, are very similar.
Brian:So what do you think of the similarities?
Brian:Because I, I, I very much agree 'cause I think that, there are, there is, there's more.
Brian:It's the narcissism of small differences when, you know, the tension within many particularly news organizations is le you know, the legacy is between sales and edit.
Brian:You know, that's always the church and state, but like there is a lot of similarities between the two.
Rachel:Yeah.
Rachel:No, it's, it's so interesting that you say that.
Rachel:I mean, rewinding what feels like a lifetime ago, I was doing just like small, small jobs, did, was a reporter
Rachel:for a little while, and like the way that the newsroom would talk about the advertising teams, it was like hideous.
Rachel:You know, it's like they are.
Rachel:Just whining and dining and they don't really have as much ingenuity or creativity or talent.
Rachel:Like it was pretty vicious.
Rachel:And I like, I didn't believe it, like I went to spend.
Rachel:Time with folks across business teams and newsrooms teams and you know, felt like there was actually as much opportunity
Rachel:for creativity and innovation within the business context of media as there was within the editorial context of media.
Rachel:And this was the moment when, you know, everyone was segmenting their print sales teams from their digital sales teams.
Rachel:social hadn't even like really.
Rachel:Take and hold in, in the way that we all know it would.
Rachel:so I, I made the switch and never looked back.
Rachel:But I think the reason the jobs are so similar is because, you know, you have to be a little bit insane to, to do this, you need to cultivate source networks.
Rachel:You need to build relationships.
Rachel:You need to like defend your reputation.
Rachel:You need to be trustworthy, you need to play.
Rachel:A long game and know that in order to be successful, it means enduring in this space for a really long time.
Rachel:you know, you need to, want to win too.
Rachel:I mean, for you or for Ben or for Max Tanney.
Rachel:You know, I'm just like th think, thinking of a lot of the media writers and reporters that I really respect.
Rachel:you know, you've gotta go the extra mile.
Rachel:and so, I think that there are just a lot of similarities in the, in the motions between reporting and sales.
Brian:Yeah, so tell me about building like the, the revenue operation from scratch.
Brian:Right, because I can remember talking with Justin Smith, the, the, one of the co-founders with Ben over at SE four.
Brian:And, and he was like, look, sales, like you have to be like.
Brian:And this, a lot of people, you know, say this, but I think you know it, to put it in into practice is really difficult.
Brian:It's gotta be way more consultative now.
Brian:Right.
Brian:And I think this is always the tension that that exists in that you need a consult.
Brian:Everyone wants a consultative, you know, sales function.
Brian:Revenue function, right?
Brian:And like a lot of times it gets pulled into transactional.
Brian:And when you look at where.
Brian:The market is going right, like the, the, the computers are already taking over a lot of the transactional parts, right?
Brian:And so it has to be.
Brian:It has you, you have to be able to stitch together programs that are more than just like an integrated package.
Brian:It seems to me, you know, that there has to be an idea behind it.
Brian:I know you have experienced like in the, the Times, like, like brand studio, but what do you think the, because you're, you were like, you know, building from scratch.
Brian:What do you think the modern like revenue organization at a publisher looks like?
Rachel:well it, it doesn't look the same at any two publishers, maybe two publishers, maybe a small number of publishers.
Rachel:But I think what I came to appreciate coming.
Rachel:To Semaphore, is that the.
Rachel:Architecture of a revenue team, the products, the packages, the solutions that you offer.
Rachel:you can just think expansively or more expansively than I was able to previously about that.
Rachel:But, Brian, just to kind of take a, a whole step back, how to, how to build a revenue organization from scratch, ultimately.
Rachel:The revenue organization, the business model, all had to rally around the brand and around the product and around the platform that we were building.
Rachel:And in the earliest days, you know, we're almost a hundred people now.
Rachel:We're two and a half years old.
Rachel:I thought I heard you mention that we were four years old on one of your shows.
Rachel:And I'm like, ah, well no, I, it was flattering.
Rachel:No, it was, it was so, so flattering
Brian:I think I got confused with puck.
Rachel:Oh, okay.
Rachel:Okay.
Rachel:no, I mean, it's, no, no, no.
Rachel:I, it, it, I took it as a flattering comment because
Rachel:I, I
Brian:I think it was just being
Rachel:it was a, it was a mistake.
Rachel:Okay.
Rachel:So that's, that's, that's like the sunny salesperson in me being like, ah, a compliment.
Rachel:Fantastic.
Brian:Oh yeah.
Brian:I'm sorry.
Brian:That was intentional.
Rachel:That.
Rachel:See, that's, that's the move.
Rachel:yeah.
Rachel:I mean, so we, we started two and a half years ago.
Rachel:and many of us, as you know, well, you've spoken to Ben, you've spoken to Justin.
Rachel:I think like, you know, our organization really well.
Rachel:We all came to Semaphore.
Rachel:I. For a very mission-driven reason, and all of us were just hyper-focused on this collapse of trust in media.
Rachel:You know, we were building semaphore against a backdrop of a period where media and news was basically as distrusted and disliked as it.
Rachel:Ever had been before.
Rachel:you know, obviously we saw the effects of social media on the news and journalism ecosystem.
Rachel:we saw for sure like the effects of like, entertainment, media, you know, cable and, and all of those different kinds of creator and, and, and that kind of model.
Rachel:and then, you know, if you look beyond the US you, you see like quite a bit of.
Rachel:you know, state censored media too, like we were just, everywhere we looked, there were challenges on the trust front.
Rachel:And so the core mission that, that we had was really how do we.
Rachel:Rebuild a brand from scratch that could meet some of these challenges and opportunities.
Rachel:Whether it was trying to attack the trust challenge, trying to adhere to a higher, and, you know, arguably more radical level of transparency in the reporting and in the content.
Rachel:How do we design a company that could attract top talent?
Rachel:I think like you've spoken about this again and again, which is just this ascendance of individual voices and talent and, and we believe in that so much.
Rachel:so just starting with the kind of brand that we wanted to build, the level of trust and transparency.
Rachel:We wanted to try to instill the talent model that we wanted to try to build.
Rachel:and then ultimately trying to build, you know, a, a. Different and more durable business model on top of all of that.
Rachel:That was the building from scratch and, and the work to do.
Rachel:and we did a lot of listening.
Rachel:I think just speaking of.
Rachel:The differences and similarities between salespeople and reporters.
Rachel:I think reporters are very good listeners and salespeople less so.
Rachel:so that was a cue we had to take from our journalist counterparts is just to kind of listen and to try to take in what our.
Rachel:Top prospective clients and customers were wrestling with.
Rachel:and that was really what had informed the build out of this, this model, um, which I'm happy to get into in a little
Brian:Yeah.
Brian:Get, let's get into the model.
Brian:'cause I want to, like, I wanna get into the details.
Brian:I'm like, I'm a self-taught, I'm a self-taught like seller
Rachel:And how, how, what, what have you learned?
Rachel:What have you learned?
Brian:Well, I've learned that there, this,
Rachel:You've learned?
Rachel:It's really hard.
Brian:trick.
Brian:I mean I've learned that obviously, you know, sales is hard.
Brian:I think it takes persistence.
Brian:It's a lot like reporting and in, you know, in large part, like, you know, I would, as an editor, I. You know, the,
Brian:the reporters I heard on the phone all day, they always submitted the stories with like, you know, five sources.
Brian:Very thorough.
Brian:And the ones that didn't hear at all said, well, I dropped the line to someone and they didn't get back to me.
Brian:I was like, oh, okay, well gee, that's a surprise.
Brian:I didn't hear you on the phone all day.
Brian:and you know, that is absolutely required.
Brian:I think listening is a superpower in, in sales because I do think.
Brian:Just by nature of what you're trying to do, you're trying to like, get everything out and like, ah, you know, and you, and, and I think that that is a trap that you can fall into.
Brian:And really, the best way to understand obviously what people want is to listen to them and to pick up on, on cues.
Brian:It's this very similar reporting.
Brian:That's why I, I had asked.
Brian:and then, you know, crafting some kind of solution that is unique to you.
Brian:That is repeatable, you know?
Brian:'cause I got, I made a lot of mistakes trying to be too custom and customized really.
Brian:And, but at the same time, sort of presents itself as unique.
Brian:That's what I sort of am looking at because it has to be repeatable and scalable.
Rachel:totally.
Rachel:Totally.
Rachel:And I mean, we.
Rachel:feel, I think every media company feels the pains of that because ultimately what you are trying to do is build large relationships with brands and partners.
Rachel:And in order to do that, nobody wants to feel like they are, buying or buying into an off the shelf.
Rachel:Product.
Rachel:Like they, they want real solutions.
Rachel:for a long time, I, I think a lot about the job of someone in our, our position.
Rachel:Now, you're not like quite selling advertising.
Rachel:You're selling or sponsorships or, you know, or, or, or events you are selling.
Rachel:Ideas, you're selling solutions that express themselves as advertising or sponsorships or, or events.
Rachel:and so for us, you, over the course of the last couple of episodes, 'cause I've been catching up on the rebooting and I am an avid listener and also reader of the newsletter too.
Rachel:you know, like this, the, the, the niche.
Rachel:Like this unbelievable value in, in strong, deep niches.
Rachel:And I think to some extent what we are building business model wise has the makings of like, you know, a an economist type storefront with an industry dive type backend, if that makes sense.
Rachel:So we're trying to marry the best of, prestige global.
Rachel:Highly visible, media journalism company with the kind of solutions that focus on helping, marketers and brands access and engage with their highest value.
Rachel:Audiences.
Rachel:You know, one other thing that we talked a lot about is how do we shift the conversation from who are your audience targets, which I think every media company is happening to.
Rachel:Let's have a conversation about stakeholders.
Rachel:and it's really like building up from that, that we were able to really inform the editorial architecture.
Rachel:How do we wanna, you know, harness the great editorial talent we have and.
Rachel:We are so lucky in that regard.
Rachel:We have Ben Smith.
Rachel:We have Liz Hoffman, we have Reid All Bugatti, we have Max Tanny, we have Yinka Ake, we have like this unbelievable group of journalists covering a variety of different beats.
Rachel:and each one of those beats represents.
Rachel:Nodes in to some of these really high value stakeholder groups and cohorts.
Rachel:and so to us the commercial model was all about how do we design a set of offerings that could help really top brands tap into some of those very high consequence stakeholders.
Rachel:And the reason I like thinking about it as stakeholders more than audiences is an audience is a very passive
Rachel:one way, you know, experience and, and a, a stakeholder relationship is a lot more, has more dynamism.
Rachel:It's.
Rachel:long term, it's ongoing.
Rachel:and it's really stakeholder media that we, we see ourself pioneering.
Brian:So the differentiation, I mean, you're, you're obviously, you're not selling scale, right?
Brian:I mean, that was sort of yesterday's and like, there's a lot of places people can go for scale.
Brian:Like it's just, it's not hard.
Brian:There's a button you can push.
Brian:It's called Meta or Google, and, and.
Brian:To win on that is pretty much impossible.
Brian:Right?
Brian:And, and so you have to win somewhere else.
Brian:And obviously we haven't seen, I, I feel like you can win in niches, right?
Brian:And in nailing a niche.
Brian:And I think one of the vibrant areas of the last few years is, you know, powerful people.
Brian:If you, if you can, you know, your audience doesn't have to be that big.
Brian:If there are, you know, bit a lot of.
Brian:Decision makers in it.
Brian:Any rapid around a brand that has, you know, heft an influence.
Brian:and so tell me a little bit about how that then translates into how you, how you go to market.
Rachel:Yeah, I mean, you've, you've got it.
Rachel:We are growing for sure from a reach perspective, but we are not preoccupied.
Rachel:By our day to day or week to week traffic me metrics.
Rachel:we have identified a small number of kind of.
Rachel:Stakeholder groups that we really, really care about.
Rachel:You can kind of think of semaphore as a highly sophisticated collection of niches across industries and for what it's worth in our case, across regions.
Rachel:you know, you are probably aware we've got, you know, great verticals.
Rachel:Here in the US with Washington being kind of like that center of gravity in a lot of ways.
Rachel:you know, Washington, wall Street, Silicon Valley, you know, we've got the media newsletter and platform.
Rachel:We've got, you know, coverage against energy, but we also have some of our Africa SEMA four Gulf, which covers, you know, the GCC countries.
Rachel:so think of us as kind of like this collection of.
Rachel:Niche focus areas.
Rachel:but that is also paying attention to a horizontal niche, which is that, that leadership cohort, that you mentioned.
Rachel:And so a lot of the conversations we're having with marketers, you know, they're not looking for, a hundred million impressions.
Rachel:They want to know, you know, who are the handful of folks in the house commerce committee.
Rachel:You know, we are focused on.
Rachel:Target audiences for some of our digital campaigns, like in the dozens, in the hundreds, in the thousands.
Rachel:In some cases it does broaden beyond that.
Rachel:but we are really focused on building out like a real stakeholder intelligence capability and think that that kind
Rachel:of era of scale, you know, we're kind of moving past that in some ways and we wanna try to pioneer that.
Brian:And talk to me more about the stakeholder intelligence cable.
Brian:I like the sounds of it.
Brian:I might take this.
Brian:I don't know what it is though.
Rachel:Yeah, so basically whether you are an advertiser who is looking to, deepen reach within Washington, and you wanna
Rachel:reach, either you wanna reach Congress, you wanna reach the federal agencies, you wanna reach, the administration.
Rachel:we are really focused on making sure that our product is just a perfect fit for those key audiences,
Rachel:and that we're continuing to build reach against them and not getting distracted by trying to reach everyone.
Rachel:You know, same thing if you're trying to reach.
Rachel:Institutional investors, wall Street, private equity, venture capital.
Rachel:That is what SEMA four business is for.
Rachel:If you are interested in reaching editors in chief media, operators and founders such as yourself, members of the
Rachel:advertising and marketing community, SEMA four Media and Mix Signals, which you know, I know you, you know about is is
Rachel:for you.
Rachel:So we're really.
Rachel:And the rebooting.
Rachel:But, but I, I would a hundred percent, I mean, I, I, I do think that what you've, what you've built is, in, in the spirit of how do you build, how do
Rachel:you build community, how do you design an editorial product that is like both by and for very specific audiences?
Rachel:And then ultimately, how do you through first party data.
Rachel:Prove with extreme precision that you reach these folks, because you're able to do so in a stronger way, and then make sure it performs.
Rachel:you know, I know you were mentioning this newsletter conference, when we sit down and chat with, with brands and we say, Hey, you know, our, our newsletters have 50, 60, 70, 80, sometimes 90% open rates.
Rachel:you know, we're, we're shifting the conversation.
Rachel:No, I'm serious.
Rachel:We're shifting the conversation from mm-hmm.
Rachel:We're shifting the conversation from scale to real engagement and performance.
Rachel:which, which has been fulfilling, but it, it informs the whole company.
Rachel:It informs our audience acquisition and development strategy, our data strategy.
Rachel:So it's been a team effort through and through.
Rachel:but ultimately the, the heart of what has made us successful is just having a brilliant editorial team who through like their own talent and individual, you know.
Rachel:Place in, in their beats, you know, have been able to build this mosaic of different niches under, under this kind of quality and trust banner at SEMA
Brian:Yeah, and I mean, it, it, it is important, obviously it starts with that.
Brian:but then you, you have to be able to like.
Brian:Show don't tell.
Brian:Like another, another good journalism thing that like works in sales, I would say is like, show don't tell.
Brian:Like there's a lot of people out there telling, right?
Brian:But you can show, and that's where data, first party data comes in.
Brian:It's like, why don't you show people who you're going to reach?
Brian:It's like, do you want.
Brian:These type of people because this is who you're going to reach.
Brian:And this is like very common.
Brian:And I feel like, and that's why it's interesting to me to have these conversations.
Brian:'cause a lot of things that were very common in the B2B world, I feel like are bleeding
Rachel:Are like the, the, the, the big shiny innovative thing in the, in the B2C media
Brian:well, I mean because there, there it, it, I feel like the two worlds.
Brian:you know, have, we're always so separate.
Brian:I remember actually going onto a stage at some Digiday Publishing summit with like, Justin and, you know, we were talking about the industry and I was like, well, I was like joking.
Brian:I was like, well, you got a terminal business at Bloomberg.
Brian:He was like, this is your terminal business.
Brian:And I sort of understood his point.
Brian:I'm like, but not quite the same because we had like, you know, an events business in the back.
Brian:That was, you know, 70, 80% of revenue at that point.
Brian:And know, the editorial was in some ways, I don't wanna say it was marketing or something, but like
Brian:we were indirectly monetizing the influence and particularly the audience data that we would collect through.
Brian:through all the editorial, it, it, it gave us the leverage to get the right people to a resort in Vail or, or Kiska or wherever it was.
Brian:And I know you guys are, are very into the events world.
Brian:You're on, you're on that.
Brian:I know, and I talked with Justin, I think, I forget when it was, maybe it was a year into like, and I think at
Brian:the time, like events were like half, Half the revenue, but tell me about how you stitch that stuff together.
Brian:because events are, you know, the knock on them is always, they don't scale, but, I don't know.
Brian:They can, you know, people love events and it's a great way to tangibly prove the influence.
Rachel:Yeah, of course.
Rachel:I mean, because you're.
Rachel:Kind of pulling together and super, super intentional, highly engaged, high, highly qualified group of, of people.
Rachel:So, I mean, EV events are at the heart center of our company.
Rachel:I know I mentioned previously that we are kind of obsessed with stakeholder intelligence and building solutions for, you know, our partners that align to certain high value stakeholder groups.
Rachel:Events are just a like.
Rachel:Breakthrough way of accelerating that relationship with key groups of people.
Rachel:the, this notion that events don't scale.
Rachel:So coming from the New York Times,
Brian:large events companies out
Rachel:there are giant ev there are giant events companies and you
Brian:I don't know if you're gonna be doing any sort of like trade shows anytime soon, but maybe, I
Rachel:Well, let me, let me explain what we're up to and then you can tell me if you think it is like the, the most, you know, a C-suite, version of that.
Rachel:Perhaps just going, going, going back to the point you made about, kind of that old business model.
Rachel:To me, journalism is the mission.
Rachel:It's not the business we like.
Rachel:The, the idea is that we need to kind of build much more innovative, like a, a set of capabilities that can actually solve the problems of our clients.
Rachel:And the bigger the problem that you solve, the more, kind of enduring your business will be.
Rachel:so events are a really, really big part of this for us.
Rachel:In about a month, we are gonna be, Convening the largest and most complex and most ambitious thing that we have ever set out to do as a company.
Rachel:I'm sure you've heard Justin and others talk about our World Economy Summit.
Rachel:It has been, kind of like nicknamed a Davos in DC or a Davos on the Potomac Davos, by the way, speaking of an events business, I think is about 500 million in annual revenue.
Rachel:So, you know, all of this about events don't scale.
Rachel:Platform scale event platforms really, really scale.
Rachel:And I think we in the World Economy Summit have done a couple of things, right, and of course learned a lot along the way.
Rachel:Identifying a moment is just absolutely key.
Rachel:the team selected the IMF and World Bank meetings, which take place.
Rachel:In April, on the third week of April every year, year after year.
Rachel:I think there's like quite a lot of intelligence.
Rachel:and Justin is obviously really leading this around how do you, how, how do you harness the wind and take a look at moments when there are gonna be
Rachel:just high concentrations of these key delegates and key attendees that we're really looking for.
Rachel:years ago we, we had this conversation about how.
Rachel:Truly ascendant Washington was going to continue to be in the business world U for us and global business leaders.
Rachel:And it really dawned on us that there was not a kind of defining gathering of CEOs in the us And so we, went.
Rachel:Through a really, really entrepreneurial process, you know, put together an incredible advisory board, developed a long, long list of some
Rachel:of the most illustrious CEOs in the world and have almost 200 of them confirmed to attend next month, which is really, really extraordinary.
Rachel:So in two and a half years, we've managed to stand up the largest gathering of CEOs on US soil.
Rachel:you know, with that comes amazing participation from.
Rachel:Global business leaders from policymakers, from media, and all of those come together, and make
Rachel:for this incredibly kind of rich and attractive environment for sponsors and participants and underwriters.
Rachel:so we have, you know, 12 public tracks across three days.
Rachel:we've quadrupled revenue in in one year, you know, compared to what we did last
Brian:Are you gonna tell me the starting point?
Rachel:I don't, I don't think so.
Rachel:I don't
Brian:It would be more impressive, I gotta say.
Brian:'cause it really depends on the base.
Brian:The
Rachel:I know.
Brian:on the base.
Rachel:Well re report, report it out.
Rachel:Take a look at the sponsors, take a look at the sponsors from last year.
Rachel:Take a look at the sponsors from this year.
Rachel:it's, it's been really, really exciting.
Rachel:And what we're doing is we're kind of having, you know, that stakeholder intelligence conversation and that, I. You know, narrative intelligence conversation on the business side with
Rachel:a lot of our partners and thinking about how can we align the right brands and organizations with the right tracks, the right conversations, the right thematics, what is the right combination
Rachel:of public programming, smaller events that can take place concurrently, and really thinking creatively about how to build this honeypot.
Rachel:And not only how to add value to sponsors, but how to add value to the CEOs and policymakers and media.
Rachel:Leaders who are there so that they stick with the event.
Rachel:because ultimately you have to add as much value to those key audiences as you do to those sponsors.
Rachel:the whole thing has to become a virtuous cycle.
Brian:So do you, is the aspiration for this to be a compliment or a replacement to.
Brian:The, the World Economic Forum.
Brian:I mean, there's, there's just one, one word missing there.
Brian:I mean, so the summit, I mean, it seems kind of intentional.
Brian:I don't know if they're mad about that, but be that, be that as a may, is, is, is that the intention?
Brian:Because I mean, if it becomes, as you said, the, the world economic forums like a monster.
Brian:I've never been, weirdly, I've never, I, I haven't been invited to
Brian:Davos
Rachel:it's an amazing media business to study and to kind of, to, to, to see.
Brian:But you know, I do think that it's kind of, at least my, again, I haven't been, but it seems like it's, it's a little bit, it's been going on for a long time.
Brian:Right.
Brian:And any, I think one of the things that I would say about events that are not beyond that, the, that not scaling is they have, most events have.
Brian:A shelf life.
Brian:They're not as enduring as a form of media.
Brian:I would, I would have to, I don't have any data on this other than vibes, but the event, like Lifecycle for a lot of them is, you know, they, they spike up and then.
Brian:They declined.
Brian:and I don't know why they don't have, like, and you, you're going to name exceptions.
Brian:I know they're exceptions to everything, but I've just seen so many event franchises that like, I mean, COMEX Expo was massive in the tech industry.
Brian:Just gone, you know, web two was a massive event and they're gone.
Brian:And, and I could name so many of them and I don't know why it is, but like is the aspiration to have this, I mean, I guess that would be a nice thing, but to.
Brian:Have it play a similar convening role that WE like the, the, the, the World Economic Forum plays.
Rachel:Well, I mean, for us, we're really focused on standing this up in Washington specifically.
Rachel:WEF takes place in Switzerland every year.
Rachel:you know, I think we, we see a lot of room on the global convening.
Rachel:Calendar and, I think we're just focused on building the best experience we can.
Rachel:semaphore participates in the World Economic Forum.
Rachel:we do a ton of business there.
Rachel:we, conduct events there.
Rachel:so to us, I think it's just about continuing to build, more and more.
Rachel:Stages across the world and across time.
Rachel:And for what it's worth, we saw this white space in DC and you know, fast forward, this is our third year doing it.
Rachel:it has never been more important for global CEOs to show up in person in dc You know, that's today, the year 2025.
Rachel:And, and we see the imperative to continue to engage in Washington increasing.
Rachel:but we see many, many more white spaces.
Rachel:On the calendar and across the world.
Rachel:you know, we also, stood up last year a, a really, really large, platform called the Next 3 billion, which we brought to life on the sidelines of UN General Assembly in New York.
Rachel:I mentioned earlier, we launched, somewhat counterintuitively, some folks would say with a SEMA four Africa edition.
Rachel:For us, from a editorial perspective, we're a lot more interested in the global east, the global south, like we wanna go.
Rachel:Where there is demographic and economic growth, like we're really thinking long, long term.
Rachel:and the next 3 billion was this incredible conference that we were able to develop to dive into still 49% of the global population that
Rachel:sits on the dark side of the digital connectivity divide the, you know, energy affordability and access health access.
Rachel:Access to financial and banking systems.
Rachel:and we were able to stand up this really kind of powerful conference that connected public and private sector against some
Rachel:of these issues and use some of our, obviously editorial differentiation and strength to be able to do that.
Rachel:That is another kind of big tower within the semaphore events ecosystem that is growing.
Rachel:so I've obviously come to many of your events.
Rachel:They're fantastic.
Rachel:There is like an insatiable demand for.
Rachel:Attendees for sponsors and partners.
Rachel:And that's from small and intimate events, medium sized to monsters.
Rachel:and so I think what we wanna do in our business is to transition more and more towards the monsters.
Rachel:where obviously all events are high effort, but it is these kind of large multi.
Rachel:multi-day, multi-dimensions, multi-event within an event, where you really can throw off a high, highly profitable, you know, highly sustainable kind of business.
Rachel:but it is a giant amount of work.
Rachel:It is like the opposite of programmatic.
Rachel:The dead opposite.
Brian:no, I know.
Brian:And that's, I think, you know, telling, because it's a big part of this model is I'm looking at like, some of the partners here.
Brian:It's like Bank of America, BCG, Chevron, Gallup, uba, I don't know if I'm pronouncing that correctly, but they're, um, Mubadala.
Brian:Okay.
Brian:I've seen them in summer for Gulf.
Brian:So these are long time partners, PMI,
Rachel:Many.
Rachel:Yeah.
Brian:Formerly known as Philip Morris, Verizon.
Brian:Okay.
Brian:Like, I've seen a lot.
Brian:So, I mean, these are part of, I feel like you guys have, you know, core partners.
Brian:You work across a bunch of different things.
Brian:Like, it's not like you're, I mean, how many, it's not like you're, you're monetizing this with like event sponsorships.
Brian:Like, it's not like, so that, that's the part I I want to get at is how you stitch all these things together, to have these sort of long term partnerships.
Brian:Because then that's where I get at, like, I feel like there's always this tension between wanting consultative and long-term partnerships.
Brian:and how a lot of times, particularly when you're in the advertising where it gets pulled into being very transactional and
Brian:then you get shoved on a spreadsheet and, and you're going up against programmatic and retail media and any other channel.
Rachel:I, I have so many thoughts about this.
Rachel:you know, one, one thing is we, we just knew right away that our pitch would not resonate with, you know, your traditional I. Media buyer, that was not going to be a smart path for us.
Rachel:We are a very, very client direct sales.
Rachel:Force and operation.
Rachel:I know that's what every company is aspiring to be.
Rachel:for us, it's, it's not only client direct, it's also at the very, very top of these organizations, whether it's CMO, increasingly CCO, and in some cases CEO.
Rachel:And that's where the virtuous cycle of being such an events led business is very, beneficial when you are.
Rachel:sales model and partnerships model, you know, relies on building programs together with top executives.
Rachel:because, you know, 25% of Semaphores audience is C-Suite.
Rachel:we're really focusing on that kind of stakeholder community model.
Rachel:so we're, we're, we're going client direct.
Rachel:you may be surprised to know that our.
Rachel:Kind of more consultative creative marketing team.
Rachel:It's like twice the size of our sales team.
Rachel:So it's a very, very different build where instead of having a very, very, very large, more transactional sales force, we have a much leaner team, that is focused on building a. Long-term relationships at
Rachel:the highest levels, and we're able to kind of look out and say to our partners, let's go executive by executive, you know, what are the moments, what are the messages?
Rachel:Who are the stakeholders that are gonna be of highest consequence to you?
Rachel:What are the risks that you are navigating for your business?
Rachel:What are your communications and marketing challenges?
Rachel:and we're also involved in a lot of conversations where clients increasingly are not only responsible for advertising.
Rachel:there are kind of consolidated leaders who are thinking about paid media, earned media owned media.
Rachel:Government relations, investor relations.
Rachel:Employee relations, and so I do think Semaphore has also been successful by learning the language of more than just advertising partnerships and being able to
Rachel:kind of build those longer term programs, as you mentioned, kind of stitch together that combination of products, offerings in order to kind of meet those needs.
Rachel:In the language of those teams as well, um, which has been another learning for sure.
Rachel:It's just like this incredible integration between these different internal functions.
Rachel:So we're very kind of, sensitive to how our partner teams are organized and the kinds of challenges they navigating.
Rachel:And as I mentioned to you before, are just working hard to, to listen more than sell and, and certainly more than talk about
Rachel:ourselves.
Brian:And I know it depends across all these partners, right?
Brian:But like, what are the performance metrics, right?
Brian:Because I think, you know, everyone wants to sell a lot of these integrated packages and their deep partnerships, right?
Brian:And then.
Brian:Again, I go back to the spreadsheet, like everyone ends up on the spreadsheet at some point and there are boxes on a spreadsheet that need to get filled out.
Brian:And whether it's clicks or views or something, everyone complains about it on the sell side.
Brian:But, how do they judge the success of being integrated into, you know, the World Economy Summit?
Rachel:Yeah, I mean it's, it's different for every partner.
Rachel:Each team has different KPIs.
Rachel:I'll say a couple of things on that though.
Rachel:One, like big step we've taken, investment we've made is knowing how important it is, not only to be really capable of telling
Rachel:a strong story and doing great marketing on the front end of a partnership, but to carry that through to the.
Rachel:Performance and reporting on the results.
Rachel:so, you know, we've, we've got the, this great team of, of marketers who see, see these programs all the way through.
Rachel:And often because we're operating across a number of different channels, you know, we need to take on the responsibility of telling that story.
Rachel:And in some cases, including events.
Rachel:Push to innovate in order to come up with different kinds of metrics.
Rachel:So just one example, we've been doing a ton of dial testing associated with our events.
Rachel:are you kind of familiar with, with that whole world?
Rachel:Yeah.
Rachel:And, and that has been actually
Brian:Well, you can explain it.
Brian:There's other people listening, so they might not.
Rachel:Yeah, I mean, dial testing is, is like a set real time sentiment analysis.
Rachel:So often political candidates will use dial testing as a means to understand how they're, in this case, like campaign messaging is resonating.
Rachel:We are applying some of those same methods to thought leadership and you know, brand building as well.
Rachel:So we're trying to kind of combine the best of what.
Rachel:Politics has to offer with the best of what media has to offer, especially in a world where the shift in trust from
Rachel:institutions to individuals that you talk about so much in media, the same thing is happening with, with companies.
Rachel:They are putting their executives forward in a much more consistent way to serve as.
Rachel:Stewards of the brand and messengers on behalf of companies.
Rachel:And so that's where the events business has a really big role to play.
Rachel:And in terms of kind of measuring success, we're thinking about everything from, you know, how well did that kind of brand's message resonate?
Rachel:What was the audience composition and concentration in a particular room?
Rachel:How can we build the right combination of, brand lift studies?
Rachel:Utilizing our own data.
Rachel:Gallup, by the way, is also a strategic partner.
Rachel:they do a lot of work with us.
Rachel:they're also an investor, and so we're also thinking hard about like what is the role of polling research surveys, in order to kind of knit together, like I mentioned before, a very
Rachel:sophisticated kind of global stakeholder media offering that thinks through, you know, everything from upfront data and insights on how, you know, key.
Rachel:Audiences are thinking about certain issues, you know, making smart recommendations about programs, content, events, sponsorships, and
Rachel:then ultimately being able to have the relationships and the patients, because ultimately these, these big deals and programs, they, they take a long time.
Rachel:and you ultimately need to, I think have a much more just, you're gonna roll your eyes.
Rachel:Consultative,
Brian:I said co consultative.
Brian:I'm not, I'm, I'm, I'm in
Rachel:I know it's a bit of a cliche because every, every company will say they're, they're going for it.
Rachel:but I think for us, no, it's, it's, it, it is, it is really, really true.
Brian:Yeah.
Brian:It's interesting.
Brian:So I, I found it really interesting that the idea that like the sales team is smaller than, I mean you call it the creative and marketing team because I think a lot of times probably, and again
Brian:this is like the difference I think between transactional and consultative, you know, the focus is always on bringing in new, new business and it's hunting.
Brian:And look, it's important, like it's very important to lend new clients, right?
Brian:and.
Brian:It's like anything, you lose client, it's like you, you lose, you lose talent when, because of the manager and you lose clients because of the delivery a lot.
Brian:Like you'll lose clients because their, their priorities change or they go outta business or they're just having a tough time or whatever.
Brian:But you know, I think usually.
Brian:That's when you, you turn over, you know, revenue and, you know, being able to retain revenue is, is incredibly important, for, for a business.
Brian:And, and that's gonna happen if you're not, you know, delivering.
Brian:But I think also, if you're not gonna just be selling kind of boxes on a page, you, you're gonna have to wait towards that, right.
Rachel:A hundred percent.
Rachel:And if you kind of compare the year over year partners, you mentioned some of our big kind of corporate brands involved in the World Economy Summit.
Rachel:These are multi-year, many of them long-term relationships.
Rachel:So I think one other.
Rachel:Component of our success has been just obsessive commitment with over-delivering and with pouring as much of ourselves
Rachel:into the delivery as we have into the, you know, sales process and trying to bring on new relationships.
Rachel:So we've been very, very focused on establishing deep partnerships, growing them over time.
Rachel:ultimately obviously pulling in new great brands along the way.
Rachel:And I think one of the powerful.
Rachel:Parts of our formula is that we have been able to build and compete very successfully within the public affairs arena for sure in Washington, you know, build and compete very successfully
Rachel:across kind of national B2B, the National B2B arena or kind of premium C-suite, arena, and then also compete successfully at a global level too.
Rachel:and so we're starting to kind of dig these different, Pools of revenue across different ad markets.
Rachel:and working to, to do that in a way that is, you know, not a hundred percent custom and bespoke.
Rachel:Because to your point, every, you know, partnership that you have, you know, you want to bring something
Rachel:to the table that is creative and original, and that is the basis on which, you know, we are competing.
Rachel:A lot of partners will say to us, gosh, you know, we went to Legacy Media Company X, Y, or Z, and they just, they cannot.
Rachel:Break the mold for us.
Rachel:and so that's been another thing that has helped make us successful.
Rachel:Just agility, client obsession, and, and kind of competing in, in those niches that we've built out across different areas.
Brian:So final thing is like, you, you guys, you, you compete in the, the public affairs bucket.
Brian:Right?
Brian:And I, I always said like, you know, there's a few, there were a few great protected ad categories.
Brian:Like one was like four year consideration, like
Rachel:Oh, yeah.
Brian:and then public affairs became.
Brian:Really a rich niche, right?
Brian:Like, I think I wrote about like rich niches.
Brian:and you know, that's to influence government is government got bigger, you know, the public affairs budgets got bigger.
Brian:tech realized, that they couldn't ignore Washington.
Brian:They had a, they had to be part of that game.
Brian:They wanted to run a lot of, you know, they wanted to influence.
Brian:You can, you can't, you can only do so much lobbying.
Brian:So you, you.
Brian:You influence people in many different ways, and there's a lot of people who need to be influenced.
Brian:A lot of it is like regulate us, but don't regulate us that way.
Brian:Regulate us in a way that benefits us, et cetera.
Brian:but Trump's president and all the, there's no legislative, I don't, is Congress.
Brian:I don't even think Congress works anymore.
Brian:I don't even know what they do.
Brian:has public affairs gotten whacked?
Rachel:Not from where we sit.
Rachel:there was certainly a period of kind of reflection or recalibration as the inauguration was approaching.
Rachel:As, you know, members of the cabinet were getting confirmed.
Rachel:but for us, I mean, we're, we're really focused on continuing from an editorial perspective to serve.
Rachel:Washington and what we estimate to be the 40,000 stakeholders within that public affairs market directly in Washington, who, you know, really, really matter.
Rachel:we are reaching just about all of them.
Rachel:Like we, we, we watch this very obsessively and it's just about complete.
Rachel:Reach and penetration in the house, in the Senate across 42 federal agencies across the White House.
Rachel:Like, we're really, really focused on making sure that we're reaching the right stakeholders here.
Rachel:but I actually think that there, it's an enduring category where whether you are a corporate brand, you know, looking to reach policy makers and deliver your
Rachel:message through smart and strategic advertising, increasingly brands and organizations across the world.
Rachel:Are starting to enter this public affairs market too, which is another place I think we have been able to really stand out.
Rachel:Semaphore does a huge amount of global coverage.
Rachel:You know, Washington needs to understand the world, and the world needs to understand Washington in a much more kind of profound way than ever before.
Rachel:so we have kind of designed this.
Rachel:Operating system.
Rachel:I think from a platform perspective where we are reaching the right folks within that public affairs ecosystem, helping us brands kind of reach them
Rachel:through our products and advertising platforms, but are also seeing brands from across the world interested in accessing those same audiences.
Rachel:And, but given our editorial context, we do quite a bit of global news, so it makes quite a bit more sense for those companies to advertise through
Brian:Yeah, I would just think, I mean, look, it's moving to where, you know, one, one person makes a lot of decisions.
Brian:I mean, that's what the thing with terrorists, it's like I'm sure, like, I don't think all the public affairs spending in the world is going to
Brian:impact that at all, because it's just basically, you'd probably be better just putting that money into buying a block of hotel rooms at like.
Brian:A property or donating to, we saw with the inauguration, like, I mean, money is money.
Brian:It can move in a lot of different directions.
Brian:Obvious that, I mean, I don't think it's like permanent and eventually Congress might get back to the congress scene part.
Brian:but all of the action is being centralized in the executive branch and a lot of public affairs spending.
Brian:To me, it's in, it's to influence the.
Brian:the legislative process, which again, I, I haven't seen a legislative process.
Brian:Maybe I'm just not paying attention, but I don't, I don't see it.
Brian:so I'll be interested to see if, if that continues to be as robust of a category and maybe it'll just normalize that.
Brian:I mean, I did see some, like with, you know, Gulf of America.
Brian:I found that kind of funny.
Brian:I.
Rachel:Yeah, I mean,
Brian:That's how you know it's a public affairs ad when they're talking about the Gulf of America for an energy company.
Rachel:thus far, you know, we've seen a lot of demand and really actually very, very strong performance.
Rachel:In the first couple of months of the year, against our public affairs products.
Rachel:but this is another reason why we.
Rachel:Are kind of very, very focused on diversification across the public affairs market, the national market, the global market, and stitching together, as I
Rachel:mentioned, that collection of niche products to be able to reach those kind of highest value groups of breeds across industries, across campaign types.
Rachel:And, and ultimately, like I mentioned, and I do think this makes us very unique, across global capitals too.
Brian:Yeah, well that's the other thing and then we'll, we'll wrap it up.
Brian:But, you know, the global orientation, which I love, you know, I love.
Brian:The, the sort of global affair, but like the entire weight is moving, like towards, you know, being, that's what I wonder about Davos, honestly, because
Brian:when Davos was going on, the inauguration was going on and like the, all the tech CEOs didn't consider going to Davos.
Brian:Like, you know, they're like, you gotta be kidding me.
Brian:Like, the action is
Rachel:We saw, we saw a couple of them.
Rachel:They were just a day late.
Brian:Okay.
Brian:But you know, like I'm, to me it was just kind of, it was a little bit of a split screen in that, you know, we're entering a more isolationist, point in time in the American political scene.
Brian:I don't know if it's possible to cut yourself off from the world.
Brian:I don't.
Brian:Necessarily see a lot of interest in engaging with the world except for, to like browbeat them.
Brian:So, it'll be interesting to see that positioning as.
Brian:I don't know if you know, if, if, if, if, if things go back to a point like pro-globalization.
Brian:There's a lot of, you know, people don't remember, like, there was, there was a period before globalization, like, you know, this is, this is a fairly recent phenomenon.
Brian:I don't know if you can roll it back, but, I, I do, I I do wonder if, you know, those moves will impact the sort of, you know, global outlook.
Rachel:Yeah, I mean, I think a lot of our targets, especially in kind of the C-suite business side and on the policymaker side, they are under as much pressure as they ever have been to understand.
Rachel:Points of view from competing centers of power and culture across the world, and to do that, you know, concisely and efficiently.
Rachel:You know, I think we have really established ourselves as a. highly kind of calorie dense, but efficient way to keep an eye on, you know, all of, all of these different dynamics across the world.
Rachel:You know, if you are running a bank or running a technology company or a. Startup founder or a, a government official.
Rachel:I think the imperative to understand and the imperative to kind of engage in a very, very multipolar world will, will, will still be there.
Rachel:And, and for us, we're trying to serve, you know, not only these, kind of key, key key groups of people across these different prisms that I mentioned.
Rachel:You know, we're trying to do that with a extreme amount of transparency, you know, to do it in a.
Rachel:Nonpartisan way, which, you know, is really central to our mission too.
Rachel:and we're trying to connect these important, not only centers of power, but to us nodes of power, connection points between regions, between industries and between sub-segments within those groups.
Rachel:And that's what I mean when I say, you know, we're, we're focused a lot on stakeholder intelligence.
Rachel:If you look at the business today, I think you see a incredibly creative dynamic, ambitious.
Rachel:Events, media, company, newsletter, media company, digital media company.
Rachel:you know, we're starting to experiment in a couple of other places.
Rachel:but if you kind of look out over the long term, and you think about what is the best combination of, What the Economist has built, what industry DIVE has built, what Davos has built.
Rachel:You know, you can start to see these pieces clicking into place and see the makings of a large, large, kind of very ambitious business.
Rachel:And ultimately what we're trying to do is, you know, create a business model that can invest in.
Rachel:Really, really great journalism.
Rachel:that's why we're all here.
Rachel:And as I mentioned at the top of the conversation that collapse in trust and that kind of capsizing of the business model was the inspiration that brought us all together and brought us all here.
Rachel:it is massively difficult as you've experienced being a founder and an operator yourself.
Rachel:but it's certainly fulfilling
Rachel:. Brian: cool.
Rachel:We'll leave it there.
Rachel:I want to, you've got some construction
Rachel:I know, I know.
Rachel:I just heard that.
Rachel:I think it's the apartment next door.
Rachel:I'm sorry.
Brian:No, no, no, no.
Brian:That's good.
Brian:This is definitely our time to go.
Brian:We gotta go.
Rachel:I know there's some kind of chainsaw
Brian:I wanted to get at the Google deal.
Brian:I'm so, I'm
Rachel:Oh yeah, yeah.
Rachel:We can talk about that.
Brian:you know, mixed signals.
Brian:I'm like, where is the, I was like, why are we not selling this anyway?
Brian:We can do that later.
Brian:We'll
Rachel:I'm, I'm happy to talk about it.
Rachel:We, we, we really love that partnership and it is a good example of listening
Brian:All right, Rachel,
Brian:thank you.
Rachel:not Talk to you soon.
Rachel:Thanks, Brian.
