Episode 163

Dynamo's Nicholas Carlson's pivot to video

Nicholas Carlson spent nearly a decade building Business Insider into a video powerhouse to complement its webpage model. Now, with his new venture Dynamo, he’s making a clean break from the old model. No articles. No CMS. No pageviews. Dynamo is a video-first media company focused on YouTube and LinkedIn, with a flagship show called Business Explains the World. In this episode, Nich explains why he’s betting on evergreen content, what he learned from Insider’s rise, and how Dynamo is approaching storytelling, distribution, and unit economics from day one. We talk about what it takes to start fresh in a mature platform ecosystem — and why the future of media might look more like TV than a homepage.

Transcript
Brian:

Welcome back everyone.

Brian:

This is Brian Morrissey.

Brian:

We are in the busy season.

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I find the rhythms of the rebooting is that there are two specific periods of intense activity.

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You know, one is now through can at the end of June and the other is October and November.

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Basically, we have a lot going on.

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so I want to tell you about a few things last week.

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We collaborated with WordPress, VIP on the media product forum.

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This is the second time we've held this event.

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We, we did it last year in July actually.

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but we had over a hundred top product executives from publishers and media companies for half day of.

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Programming, networking and round table discussions.

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These kind of gatherings to me are more valuable.

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no offense to the massive events out there like possible on the others, but I just find that when you have smaller and more focus rooms, you have more value that is created.

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and it was a very fruitful day.

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You can find out more from the discussions and the candid sort of round table talk, on the rebooting.

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And we did a, a recap of it.

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a collaborator Daniel Cole had helped me on that one 'cause I can't be everywhere at the same time.

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And you know, my big he headline from this is that.

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All of these businesses in some way, shape or form are in transition.

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And usually that's from these page-based models that are dependent, in particular on search traffic, to more audience-centric models that are about building.

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You know, loyal direct connections and you know, that's a message that came through in the reboot's latest research, which we are releasing today, and that is the audience data opportunity.

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We did this with our partners at Onic and it explores how publishers are using AI not to generate content.

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but to finally make sense of their audience data.

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I mean, this is a kind of basic infrastructure work that a lot of these publishers absolutely have to undertake.

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We surveyed nearly a hundred publishing executives and then interviewed, product and data leaders at places like Time buzzfeed in the Atlantic.

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And the through line is this, AI is helping publishers, you know, patch the messy wiring behind their data strategies, but most are still stuck with siloed systems.

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Unclear ownership and underpowered segmentation, but the direction is clear.

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AI is getting embedded in how audience teams work.

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It is being used to surface insights to trigger actions and make faster decisions.

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Personalization, of course, remains the North Star, but right now most progress is happening on the infrastructure layer.

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You can download the full report by going to the rebooting.com.

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I'll also leave a link to it.

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In the show notes, do onto today's episode.

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You know, one of the things that, struck me last week, I was at this cocktail party, ran into a big publishing company executive, and these conversations always

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turn to, I've noticed over the years, at some point, the person always says, well, what do you see that's interesting out there?

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And I've gotten this question so many times over the years, you would think that I have, you know, a ready made answer.

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And, you know, these days I think it's like harder.

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honestly, I don't mean to be like a downer, but you don't really hear about a lot of like new media startups anymore.

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The last wave, the puck semaphore, the anr, the Free Press, they're now like three or four years old.

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And, and most are frankly, niche, you know, and I look, I love niche, I in a niche, and I think that it's just so much better and frankly easier to build businesses when you, you go narrow and deep.

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but.

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The reality is the broader media environment is in retrenchment.

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I mean, there is little faith in pageview models.

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You, you can see this in, you know, investors.

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I mean, they are, they're fleeing pageview models and, you know, subscriptions and newsletters offer some installation.

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but they always seem to come with a ceiling.

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and a lot of these models have that.

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which brings me to YouTube, because if you're starting a media company.

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In 2025, I think YouTube is probably where you begin.

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Now it's not easy 'cause nothing is easy.

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This is media.

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but it's one of the last places where you can develop a flywheel.

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I think you have strong creators.

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You have built-in discovery, you have sustainable economics.

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YouTube is imperfect like any of these platforms, but it has done the best job of striking the balance between the needs of those operate on top of the platform.

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And obviously the platform itself, it has not cut the knees out from under, its creators for the most part.

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there's always a push and pull anytime you have a platform, but you can build a durable brand.

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and you can also.

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Easily, not easily, but you can, you can get beyond just advertising and, and you see this like I had on, you know, dude Perfect.

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A couple months ago.

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And I think that's a great example.

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There's, there's tons of these out there.

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I, I believe that YouTube is going to be the home to several billion dollar media brands.

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Okay?

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Now they're not gonna make a billion dollars.

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On YouTube, right?

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But YouTube is going to be the hub of what they operate on.

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and that's why I was really interested to have a talk with, Nick Carlson, former editor in chief at Business Insider, someone who I've known, for many years.

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I, I didn't get to it in the podcast.

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I always like to, to say my favorite, like Nick memory was when he was a young, I'll call him a Cub reporter.

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at, I think it was K click see, or internet news or something.

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And he was, or no, no, at the time he was, he was doing Gawker Valleywag and Facebook was debuting its ad system and they wouldn't

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let Nick in because he was just, he was just looking to dig up dirt and he was, he was a feral young reporter, which I love.

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And so he like.

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Button holding me outside and was like, you gotta tell me what's going on inside there.

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So, I, I love that and I, it, it has always stuck with me.

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'cause Dick's been a, reporter's reporter.

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And I, I think he took that through to, you know, building bi from, you know, what was an aggregation model to, you know, becoming One of the brands that reached escape velocity in the last year.

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BI is going through its own transition now, but it was without a doubt, one of the winners of its cohort.

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from that time now, now.

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Now is a different time.

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And, and so I, I take it as an important sign that where Nick has turned is, not in building a another page based, mostly text model, but to YouTube now, it, it's, it's worth noting

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that it helped turn, business Insider at the time that they, they had a little foray into being just insider, into a, a force on YouTube.

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He started, their, video operations.

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And you know, now BI has 10 million, plus subscribers on YouTube.

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and so what Nick is doing is, is not to recreate.

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The text based version of bi, but he's starting Fresh with Dynamo.

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It is a video first media company built for YouTube and LinkedIn.

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there's no articles, there's no website.

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Nick has gone post text as Felix Salmon, famously said so many years ago.

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it is just video programming, with a unit economics lens, which we get into and I think that's really important.

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the flagship.

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Show is Business explains the world.

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It is what I consider a high-end explainer series featuring, you know, YouTube native talent like Kyla Scanlan, who is like a Gen Z economics creator.

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she does some, some great stuff breaking down.

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Complex issues, in, economics is always kind of complex in very like digestible and approachable ways.

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and she, she creates really smart stuff, and, and they have, they have others who are really good at this.

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Nick and I get into his thinking behind Dynamo.

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Why he believes YouTube is, is basically TV now and how he's building a a company that's optimized for where the attention and money is actually going.

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Here's my conversation with Nick.

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Nick very happy to be doing this.

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excited to learn more about Dynamo.

Nick:

thanks Brian.

Nick:

It's good to see you.

Brian:

Yeah.

Brian:

so when you, when you decided you were leaving

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right?

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And you were figuring out leaving Business Insider and figuring out what you were gonna do, right?

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walk me through the process about the opportunity,

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you know, that you saw here.

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Because obviously Doom and Gloom, media, et cetera, I used to have these podcasts all the time with

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people starting ambitious, you know, media companies.

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I don't have

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that as much anymore.

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You know, people go and they start sub stacks

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or, you know, maybe they'll do a podcast.

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but you know, most people are not, you know,

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you're, I think you're taking like a bigger swing, but what did you see?

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Because you have

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to like, think not just the way the market is now, but particularly if you're gonna raise money and you raise, you raised what a three and a half million dollar round you gotta think about.

Brian:

Yeah.

Brian:

It forces, it forces you to think around corners and like down the line.

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So what's,

Brian:

what, how do you see this developing and, and why Dynamo?

Nick:

I saw a bunch of things,

Nick:

so.

Nick:

Obviously, but one of them was, we had a lot

Nick:

of success with video at Business Insider and it was good business and so that gave me comfort.

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Kind of made me go, okay, I can see that this does work.

Nick:

And so, a little bit of a classic kind of like, unbundling, you know, there's, there's this mythology of the startup

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founders that they're the person who comes like the, the Mark Zuckerberg, who kind of is in a college dorm room somewhere and

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has a.

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An idea, but actually a lot of

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startups are founded by people who work at bigger companies and kind of see, something interesting happening there.

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And they say, oh, you know, it might be great to, to go run something like that.

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and so that's not the, that's not the totality of the idea, but that's definitely a piece of what gave me comfort about doing this.

Nick:

The, the, probably more inspiring, but also true answer to why Dynamo is that.

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people love video storytelling, right?

Nick:

I mean, it's like, I, I, what I say to, to people I'm interviewing all the time is

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like, what's the last time you know, a tele, a television show or a movie made you cry?

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And, you know, everyone's got

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a quick answer.

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And not everybody, I guess, But a lot of people do.

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Certainly people that I'm hiring to

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do make videos for Dynamo

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Do you ask then if they like, what was the last webpage that made you cry?

Nick:

Right.

Nick:

It's not quite

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either.

Nick:

Like even novels, like I, I

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love novels, but, it's it was like, it's been since tomorrow and, tomorrow and tomorrow, maybe two or three years ago, that I was having a hard time keeping my eyes clear and, you know, it just doesn't happen as often

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in the written word.

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And, and so it's an emotional, powerful medium is, and you know, you hear me talk a lot about

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cinematic journalism and so.

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What I mean by

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that is journalism that gives you through, its editing

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the sound, the music,

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the shot selection, a feeling as much as it gives you information.

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And so, I, I've just, you know, we used to play this game at,

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like one of my favorite icebreakers is to ask people.

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you know and we would play this at bi and other, we would play where I, where I work.

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So I'd say, other than your current job, you know, if you

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could imagine yourself in some other

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person's life, some other career, one is where you're, you're,

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like, you can have their skillset, physical skillset.

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So like,

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you know, you could be Tom Brady or, or Beyonce or something like that.

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and the other one is like, if you're you,

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you have to be yourself.

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you could swap into someone

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else's career, what career would you pick?

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and I used to say things like Head of Lucasfilm or something like that, you know?

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And so for

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me, the idea of getting people together,

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raising money to get people together, to tell, really engaging, sometimes moving subtly educational.

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Stories is, is, It was, was a really exciting possibility in

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that, that I saw

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that you could have commercial success with.

Nick:

It

Brian:

yeah, I mean your, your roots,

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you're a text guy, like as a reporter, but then like you I remember when the, when the sort of distributed, you know, media thing was like

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hot with like group nine was doing it and Buzzfeed, et cetera.

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You know, you built the, the BIS version of that and that's, that's what it ended up becoming insider basically off the success of that.

Brian:

Right.

Nick:

Yeah, we, in 2015, we, we started a new brand called Insider.

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And it, the idea was to be a distributed media company.

Nick:

I'd, I'd, I'd actually, I don't know if you remember this, but when Jill, a Abrahamson got fired, it.

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From the times David Flik hit Twitter and did, instead of writing an article, he did a tweetstorm.

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And this was I think May or June, 2014.

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And in that moment I was like, oh, you don't need a website to tell stories anymore.

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Um, and so what happens if you actually built.

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A brand that acknowledged that, and then maybe even a company someday that acknowledged that,

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where you don't have to make all the engineering investments and you can just kind

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of rock, like let the

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big tech companies do all that work, then you just build a great brand.

Brian:

And, and oh by the way, like, you know, the distribution, like, let's not forget the

Brian:

distribution.

Nick:

The distribution.

Nick:

Exactly.

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and

Nick:

look, I mean, it's, it is a little bit.

Nick:

The scorpion on the frog's back sometimes with these things, and I know, I'm gonna get a distribution platform question from you at some point, but, but yeah, so the idea was

Nick:

build out on other, on on the platforms.

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And the first, what was happening at the time was the ice

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bucket challenge on Facebook.

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So that's

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actually what got me to video.

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It was, oh, video is what's clicking

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on these platforms.

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Let's make videos.

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So we did

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these.

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People will remember these social videos that were sound optional, sound off

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all the time, text on screen, and what

Brian:

lot of Sky Mall videos of that, of that era.

Brian:

That's what I remember.

Nick:

They were, we did

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that.

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And the cheese, there was the cheese

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content and then there was the lot of

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like weird business.

Nick:

great.

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you know, that, you

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know that.

Nick:

We called those hook shots.

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Those were the, the opening, like the opening image.

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These things

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could be 15 to 45 seconds long.

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and, and they were really

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kind of like, not to, to call them

Nick:

video is, I mean, technically accurate, but they were not documentary.

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They were.

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Image, image, image, three sentences and

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facts about 'em, and then you're

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done.

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But what was cool even at the time, was the things that grabbed people's attention were just stunning

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visuals.

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and our first, what we had big hits that were built on like marketing footage and, and for

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sure.

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Or like, you know, tourists, Instagram users

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jumping into sea notes.

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You know, those, those

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big like waterhole things.

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But we had this one.

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That was

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shot by Ben Nye, who's still a business insider of Rainbow Bagels.

Brian:

yeah, the Rainbow Bagel.

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it was the dough getting cut and it was like this

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perfect shot of it that we shot.

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We went in

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and and it's like, and the editing was amazing, and that kind of was like this moment I was like, oh my God, like.

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You can grab people's attention and then hold it with just incredible cinematography.

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And the, the thing that, and then Facebook, uh, so insider was built on the back of Facebook when it was in its social video era.

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Facebook started to wobble and not know what it was, and really made room for TikTok to come

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in and eat, eat its lunch in some ways.

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And we, but I, and I said to the team, Hey.

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We need to get to YouTube.

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And by the way, look what, look what

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Vox is doing.

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I loved Vox at the time, and I mean, still Vox is still great with Ed Veg and others,

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and we, we began to

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get big on YouTube and over the next several years we grew, to getting 31 million subscribers on YouTube, which is A lot.

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And, like a billion minutes watched, which I remember talking to you many

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years ago about all the video views we were

Nick:

getting, but I.

Brian:

they all ran together.

Brian:

Honestly, Ben Lair would come in, he'd be like 5 trillion.

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I'd be like billion, trillion.

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I don't even know at this point.

Nick:

The views are a funny metric.

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Watch time is

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real.

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That's like, that's, that's people.

Nick:

Hanging out and so, so we got really big at it.

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And it was, but in the cool, the, the really cool thing I love

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about Business Insider and a lot of what Dynamo is, is taking lessons from some

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of these big players past and and, And hopefully not frankensteining them together, but like, melding them together in a cool new thing.

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But one of the things I want to take from the

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BI experiences, the amazing cinematography, if you go watch.

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BI videos, like they had just published one about ship breakers in I believe Pakistan.

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And it's,

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the shots are incredible.

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And so I want to take cinematography free cinema, the shots

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shot making, and the, from bi, the script writing from Vox, the, the editing from Vice.

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and kind of make

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something new.

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and that's, that's, that's why Dynamo from a

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creative front.

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And then, And then I can, obviously, I will go on, but, I,

Brian:

I'll jump in.

Brian:

I'll jump in every now and

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again.

Brian:

Again, Nick.

Brian:

But I'm interested, and I wanna get into to the

Brian:

specifics of Dynamo, but you know, you just, you know, look, you, you were kind of, I always feel like in a lot of businesses you're running like the, the

Brian:

existing business or I guess the legacy business, and then you're trying to build the n

Brian:

next business, right?

Brian:

and it's just a constant battle of doing that.

Brian:

And I feel like in a lot of these companies,

Brian:

they're like, we're gonna put, we're gonna put words

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on a webpage.

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We're gonna try to get people to that webpage, and we're gonna like either hit 'em with a subscription wall or we're going to, you

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know put ads usually sold programmatically in front of them and rinse and repeat.

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And we're just gonna keep doing this.

Brian:

And most, most publishers, you know, they don't, they don't see like a massive future in that.

Brian:

And I just think you're, you know, starting from scratch, you have a lot of disadvantages, right?

Brian:

Like, you're not, you're not going into one liberty anymore.

Brian:

You look like you're in one of the rooms of your house.

Nick:

We do have an office

Brian:

Okay.

Brian:

There you go.

Nick:

Friday.

Nick:

We're civilized.

Nick:

We

Brian:

Oh good.

Brian:

But you know what I mean, like one of the big advantages of starting

Brian:

from scratch and you have to use it 'cause you have so many disadvantages, right?

Brian:

You have no distribution, you have no monetization, you

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have no, I mean it's like it's enough that like you wouldn't

Brian:

wanna get out of bed if you're like focused on it.

Brian:

But you do have the advantage of

Brian:

not having a lot of operating that that old business and you can like build just like what the business

Brian:

that you think that is the business of the future.

Brian:

Right.

Nick:

That's precisely right.

Nick:

I

Nick:

mean, it's sort of, you are, I remember, I texted, I think a mutual, you know, connection of ours, but Ben Smith, I, I asked him actually about a year before I left

Nick:

bi.

Nick:

I was like, Ben, you've gone off to

Nick:

seven four.

Nick:

How do you like it?

Nick:

Should I do this kind of thing?

Nick:

He's like yes.

Nick:

And I sort of like, you get to just leave all the

Brian:

like, no, absolutely

Brian:

not.

Nick:

right.

Nick:

You to leave all the mistakes behind.

Nick:

You get to do all the things you know you should

Nick:

have done from the beginning.

Nick:

And you take all

Nick:

the lessons you learned

Brian:

But you decided you're, you don't have, you're not gonna be putting words on webpages.

Brian:

You've put a lot of words on webpages in, in, in, in your

Nick:

I love the written word.

Nick:

You know, there is so many words, and I mean, on so many web pages, I, I, and I'm a little

Nick:

skeptical of webpage.

Nick:

I think we could, you know, I think that there.

Nick:

that business is in trouble.

Nick:

I love, I love reading and writing.

Nick:

I, you know, I, I will, I will write again someday, probably, you know, I hope.

Nick:

but no, we're gonna be a video company.

Nick:

That's,

Nick:

that's the idea.

Nick:

I, you know, I, I don't, I rule out, newsletters, which I also believe in.

Nick:

I think they're are a

Brian:

yeah.

Nick:

but that's, that

Nick:

would, if, if that

Brian:

That's like, that's like a side dish.

Brian:

I mean, your main dish is you gotta decide where you're gonna win and you're gonna win on video.

Brian:

Like, it's, it's all about the video.

Brian:

And so talk to me about like, you're also sort of going away from news in quotes, right?

Brian:

Like, I mean, it's a form of it, but it's more evergreen, right?

Brian:

Like, I mean, the

Brian:

videos, I was watching some of them, before this, and they're, they're evergreen, right?

Brian:

Like, I mean, the, you know, why, why aren't, you know, why haven't trucks gotten massive?

Brian:

Like is is gonna be, you know, relevant,

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a month from now, two months from now, six months from.

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now.

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And that has tremendous leverage.

Brian:

The problem of news, there's lots of

Brian:

problems with news, is like the value peaks

Brian:

in like a few hours and then it just like goes away.

Brian:

And that, that is a, that's tough.

Nick:

I was gonna say, the cost of making something that's relevant for three months is the same as the cost of making something that's relevant for 10 years.

Nick:

So yes, we are gonna make things that, and we saw this, we saw this.

Nick:

One of the things that I've seen in

Nick:

my past is, I'm trying not to say bi a

Nick:

hundred times in this interview, but one of the things I saw there was that these, the shelf life is very long.

Nick:

And so, you know what the, the, the, among the pitches to, to investors is we're gonna make things that.

Nick:

we're gonna be a unit economics focused company, and for us, the unit is an hour of watch time and we're going to, the, the cost to, to get an

Nick:

hour of watch time is the most at the beginning, but then every year it goes down because the cost will have been spent years ago to

Nick:

get much of the year time.

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We, the watch time, we get that year, and so we are going to build a big library across.

Nick:

Multiple platforms and multiple channels of, of, you know, evergreen or nearly

Nick:

evergreen, journalism, not

Nick:

news.

Nick:

And, you know, so it's funny, she,

Nick:

and, and I know I was speaking to, someone in the industry who I really respect and she was just sort of

Nick:

like, and her job is to.

Nick:

Sell advertising to, to support

Nick:

journalism.

Nick:

She's like

Nick:

and I never use the word journalism, so it was just sad because, you know,

Brian:

first role of selling sy selling journalism is do not, do not

Brian:

mention

Nick:

I deeply believe in journalism and I think it is, you

Brian:

Yeah.

Brian:

It's, but it's like,

Brian:

we can go forever.

Brian:

Like it's, you know, it's it's almost non-economic activity.

Brian:

You need some other subsi subsidizing force that is going to, and if you're starting from scratch, look, I, I, I admire what, what a lot of people are doing in news and trying to save local and whatnot.

Brian:

But, you know, the bigger, obviously the internet has become.

Brian:

Video first at the end of the day.

Brian:

And, and the, the heart of that is YouTube, right?

Brian:

YouTube is TV And I mean, we were talking before we got on this, 'cause I don't do video yet for this podcast, which I'm still kind of skeptical about.

Brian:

But, I think it's good for promotion, but I'm not sure if people wanna watch this.

Brian:

Maybe.

Brian:

I don't know.

Brian:

I think if we, if we like actually, showed some of these videos, like while we were talking about 'em, I think that could be, that would be compelling.

Brian:

But I don't,

Brian:

but anyway.

Nick:

to just.

Nick:

Pocket, they, they have they either have YouTube premium and then can hit the lock screen and it's basically just playing the audio through their ears, or they just leave the lock screen open, put it in their pocket and walk with it.

Nick:

You know?

Nick:

So they're not

Nick:

even looking at you?

Brian:

yeah.

Brian:

So, so you're basically YouTube first.

Brian:

I know you're doing YouTube and, and LinkedIn, right?

Brian:

Like, and

Nick:

YouTube and LinkedIn first.

Nick:

I mean, I really, we really believe, yeah.

Nick:

Yes.

Brian:

All right.

Nick:

Okay.

Brian:

Well explain, like, walk me through the unit.

Brian:

Economic.

Brian:

'cause I mean, I, I, I don't really, I have a torture relationship with LinkedIn.

Nick:

Okay.

Nick:

Well, let's, let's talk about your

Brian:

because YouTube, I get it.

Brian:

Like, you know, you, you just see businesses like spotter, right?

Brian:

And you see that long tail value of

Brian:

the libraries.

Brian:

And if you're creating content, because I wanna get into

Brian:

the unit economics.

Brian:

'cause this is a tough, well actually let's just start with the, the, what the content is.

Brian:

'cause

Brian:

I, I always say like, people make this stuff so complicated and like media is about what you make, how you distribute it, and then how you make money off it.

Brian:

Like, that's it.

Brian:

So what you decided to make, you were gonna do evergreen.

Brian:

You weren't gonna do news, you were gonna do video.

Brian:

you're like a very like, optimistic guy.

Brian:

You're like very excited.

Brian:

You, you're curious and you like to understand how the world works.

Brian:

That is always sort of my

Brian:

impression from you, Nick.

Nick:

Glad you got that impression.

Nick:

It's good.

Nick:

yeah.

Nick:

And so we are making, so you say YouTube first and it's, and, and look.

Nick:

We are absolutely gonna be known by lots and lots of people, probably only for our YouTube work, and that is wonderful.

Nick:

we will maybe, I, I am interested in the

Nick:

idea of people really knowing us for LinkedIn also, LinkedIn has more to prove as a video platform.

Nick:

They're excited about it.

Nick:

They believe in it.

Nick:

I think that, so Dynamo, we haven't got to our brand at all yet.

Nick:

I do wanna get to what we make, but I think now I should just talk.

Brian:

Okay.

Brian:

Sure.

Nick:

I mean, so just for the audience, so

Nick:

they know, what I'm talking about, why LinkedIn would matter to me

Nick:

at all.

Nick:

But Dynamo, who's it for, is for people who are building companies, building careers, building communities

Nick:

and lives.

Nick:

And so, you know, I, I, the, my wife came up with a name Dynamo and I loved it because it describes a person and there are media brands out there that I win, you know, like.

Nick:

I, I maybe in the past wished, you know, we had where it's like, oh, you can, you can call

Nick:

yourself that name.

Nick:

So if you love Dynamo in

Nick:

10 years, you know, you, you, I'm a dynamo, you know, and, and, and I love it.

Nick:

So that kind of thing.

Nick:

So, you know, we, we wanted to describe both ourselves and

Nick:

a person.

Nick:

in our audience with our name.

Nick:

So that's a dynamo.

Nick:

I was just, you know,

Nick:

the people who are making something out of their

Nick:

lives, they see life as an opportunity.

Nick:

And so those people are all over LinkedIn.

Nick:

That's, that's what LinkedIn is.

Nick:

It's a social

Nick:

network for people who see life as an opportunity.

Nick:

So on LinkedIn we are

Nick:

publishing kind, you know it the, for as anybody who's spent any time there lately.

Nick:

They have their kind of like TikTok thing going their reels or whatever you want to call 'em, short form, vertical videos in feed.

Nick:

And so that's, it's a perfect match for our audience.

Nick:

We think

Nick:

we can bring a slightly more cinematic

Nick:

edge to like the, the journal, I say, I was about to

Nick:

say content.

Nick:

I don't like that word.

Nick:

And then I was about to say journalism and I'm told not to say that word.

Nick:

So help me come up with a word, you know, anyways, the stories, the storytelling,

Brian:

get, get all kind of weird about the word content.

Brian:

It's fine.

Nick:

I

Brian:

It's a catchall term.

Nick:

I know, and, and, and a lot of people, I, I mean like, you know, people call themselves creators and they, they're content creators.

Nick:

Like Yeah.

Nick:

Content to me sounds like just like a, a generic like thing to, it's like what, with all due respect to the ad sales execs who I'm sure listen to this podcast content sounds like something that they're kind of like, is an afterthought to

Nick:

the ads they wanna sell.

Nick:

Like, they're like, well, yeah, we're gonna need some content for this, advertising business that we've

Nick:

created called, uh, you know.

Nick:

So I don't, I don't love the term, but I, I, I'm gonna get it better.

Nick:

So,

Nick:

so LinkedIn, we have the short videos going.

Nick:

Those are little, like

Nick:

how the world works and business explains it for you.

Nick:

So our, our our

Nick:

most recent really big hit on

Nick:

LinkedIn is.

Nick:

Why did we stop seeing those, like optimist, prime style, flat front trucks

Nick:

on the highways.

Nick:

They're gone.

Nick:

You know?

Nick:

And actually when someone told me they're gone, I was like, oh yeah, they are gone.

Nick:

I haven't seen one in a long time.

Nick:

Well, you know, if you were around in the eighties or nineties, you kind of

Nick:

remember they were part of the, the, all the trucks on the highway.

Nick:

Now they're

Nick:

not.

Nick:

Why?

Nick:

And we explain why

Nick:

and, and in 90 seconds, and it has to do with regulations in ca like in

Brian:

But is that unique?

Brian:

'cause I mean, I was watching

Brian:

a YouTube video, like a trucking YouTube video.

Brian:

Like, I mean, are you, 'cause I mean, you have to get efficient.

Brian:

I wanna get into

Brian:

like, you know how you make, and then you get, you get, you need to be

Brian:

efficient

Nick:

yeah, yeah, So yes, so yes, you saw, and then the other thing we're doing on YouTube,

Nick:

just to get, let's get to what we're making, is a show called Business Explains the World.

Nick:

It's our first show.

Nick:

We're gonna make more shows down the road, but it is our first flagship show.

Nick:

It's we're, you know, we're putting a lot of

Nick:

investment into it.

Nick:

you saw an episode about.

Nick:

Why are American trucks not as big

Nick:

as trucks in Finland or Australia?

Nick:

And maybe should they be?

Nick:

And yes, yes.

Nick:

the answer is they should be?

Nick:

And while doing that story, we came up,

Nick:

we came upon this like, oh, this little factoid that cab over trucks are gone in the United States,

Nick:

the flat fronted ones.

Nick:

Why?

Nick:

And so that tidbit in, you know, what is the, you know, the idea is.

Nick:

Spend the money to

Nick:

make a

Nick:

great story, and in the process, other stories will

Nick:

turn up and you can either, they're either literally something you can clip out of the longer thing, or they're like a, you know, editing

Nick:

room, floor factoid like this, that you then, turn into its own fix.

Nick:

You spend once to

Nick:

like cut and repurpose the journalism you're doing.

Nick:

Oops.

Nick:

I said it, on different platforms and, and that's, yeah.

Brian:

right.

Brian:

And you're doing like fairly long.

Brian:

I guess YouTube's weird because it's,

Brian:

it's, it's no longer, I mean, there's both, you either go really short

Brian:

or there's a lot of like, you know, fairly long, but it seems like you're, you're settling in around like 15, 20 minutes for a

Brian:

lot of these.

Nick:

yeah.

Nick:

So on YouTube, our first show is called Business Explains the World, and yes, those

Nick:

are aiming to be 12 to 18 minutes.

Nick:

One of our first episodes is gonna be 20 minutes, and one's gonna be 11

Nick:

minutes because the idea is.

Nick:

Tell the story at the right length rather than have some arbitrary rule around it.

Nick:

you know, for the business, for the operators who I know listen to this, obviously a little bit long, there's a sweet spot where you get two ad breaks in a YouTube video and you want that.

Nick:

And so there's a reason to get to 12

Nick:

minutes.

Nick:

and and also YouTube at the moment, and I think for the foreseeable is favoring

Nick:

longer stuff because as you mentioned, people are watching these

Brian:

I mean, it's in their interest.

Brian:

They want people watching more stuff

Nick:

I know.

Nick:

Yeah, it's, and you want, you know, when I was, when I left bi, we were up to like, 50% of our watch time was on TVs.

Nick:

And, and so as I set out to build Dynamo and Business explains

Nick:

the world, these are TV shows.

Nick:

I, mean, they're not, you know, they, I think of them as streaming

Nick:

ad supported television and on a, on a, on a platform, you know, and the app is

Nick:

YouTube and instead of, of my TV being Spectrum or something like that, you

Brian:

Yeah.

Brian:

And they're high qu I mean, you're, they're high quality.

Brian:

Like you're doing like a lot of,

Brian:

you know, you know, production.

Brian:

These aren't like, you know, just dash it out like videos.

Brian:

I mean, I think we've, we've gotten this weird place

Brian:

where I think authenticity in some ways is a little overvalued.

Brian:

'cause it's just an excuse for like, bad lighting and poor production values,

Brian:

you know?

Brian:

And, and look, the economics are, are a lot better when you don't have to spend money on a lot of production.

Nick:

Survivorship

Nick:

bias.

Nick:

And it's like, I love, and so so what we hear from a lot of people in the YouTube world is because the giant

Nick:

stars are solo and they're, And, and then they started with tiny budgets 'cause they did it out of their,

Nick:

you know, whatever.

Nick:

like oh, that's how you have to do it.

Nick:

You know, you, you have to be

Nick:

like a, a, a solo host and all you can get is through like the charisma of this one person.

Nick:

And that's how you get a big following.

Nick:

And, and Yeah.

Nick:

you need to be, and it needs to be low, low,

Nick:

quality.

Nick:

Authentic.

Nick:

Authentic.

Nick:

But actually if you look at

Nick:

Cleo Abram, who's a huge role model

Nick:

for us and also Johnny Harris and they're spending a lot on their videos.

Nick:

Those things look good.

Nick:

and and like Cleo Abram's latest video about black holes, I mean, it's, it's spectacular.

Nick:

the animation in it is is like you know, artistic and beautiful, you know, and I'm sure very expensive.

Nick:

So,

Brian:

Yeah, so one of the

Brian:

other.

Brian:

Sort of trends is like this move from like institutional brands to individual brands, right?

Brian:

And I think the pendulum will swing back more towards institutional brands, you know, because, and collections

Brian:

of voices and everyone is trying to figure out like where they

Brian:

are in that spectrum.

Brian:

Like if you think about

Brian:

like PAC and Semaphore, they're at different parts of the spectrum, but they're on that

Brian:

spectrum.

Brian:

They're, they're looking to,

Brian:

you know, puck is more about like, you know, basically, you know, gathering together the best of Substack in some ways.

Brian:

you know, all those people could be sub stackers like, and then, you know, se four more like a traditional sort of brand.

Brian:

But how are you thinking about that?

Brian:

Because you have, you have some like, you know, names, right?

Brian:

Like, I mean, you have like Kyle Scanlon who, who, is, Nora Ali.

Brian:

So how are you thinking about that?

Nick:

Yeah.

Nick:

And so when you asked that like, am am I thinking

Nick:

about Yeah, like.

Nick:

You know, some people will come out and say, the future of journalism and media is individual contributors with their own platform.

Nick:

And you know, obviously I don't think that's a hundred percent the case.

Nick:

I do think that there will be, I just mentioned two names two seconds ago, Johnny Harris, who's also, by the way, like the CEO of the company is his

Nick:

wife is Harris.

Nick:

And so she's a genius too.

Nick:

And then, and then, and then Cleo is also, but they are all like.

Nick:

Behind the scenes.

Nick:

Johnny Harris's

Nick:

Comp and Is Harris's company is a thing called New

Nick:

Press, which they just launched, which is a network, it's a business.

Nick:

You know, they have, they're launching multiple

Nick:

channels and so there are real efficiencies and advantages to being a

Nick:

company.

Nick:

And,

Brian:

For sure.

Brian:

I meant more of the brand sort of thing, right?

Brian:

So like you're trying to build, like

Brian:

Dynamo is the brand, right?

Brian:

And like, you know, there's, there's, the franchise is, you know, business explains the world and then you're adding in it seems like individual voices.

Brian:

And a lot of times I feel like

Nick:

Yeah, I, I understand what you're saying now.

Nick:

Yeah.

Nick:

I keep thinking about SportsCenter or, being the model where it's, it's

Nick:

kind of like, yes, there's really talented people

Nick:

involved and they absolutely are the kind of person who might go on someday to

Nick:

go start their own

Nick:

show.

Nick:

Craig Kilborn, right.

Nick:

Or you know, you know, who did the daily show and obviously a lot of them off went off into other things.

Nick:

And so, but yet the brand continues because it recruits a

Nick:

certain kind of person into the fold and they're excellent and people love the brand for its consistency.

Nick:

And you know, the, one of the things that is another argument for Dynamo is that, you know, we're entering it

Nick:

into an era where, you, know, here I will say the word content creation is getting cheaper.

Nick:

All the time.

Nick:

And, and meanwhile also, so, so we're

Nick:

already getting just flooded with what I think people call, like what do they call it?

Nick:

AI dr or like, ai, I don't know.

Brian:

Slop,

Nick:

Just

Brian:

think is the

Brian:

general term.

Nick:

so as that happens.

Nick:

You know, the

Nick:

unit of scarcity becomes trust.

Nick:

And and I

Nick:

think if you think about like the origi, why brands started in the very

Nick:

beginning, it was because you went to the market and you wanted to get food that wasn't gonna poison you.

Nick:

And so,

Brian:

like, I mean, people, people were regularly rolling the dice when they were traveling across this country in the 1950s, like stopping

Brian:

at some terrible roadside diner where the guy had just come outta the restroom and hadn't washed his hands and he was making the burger.

Brian:

So

Nick:

So when I thought about brand, I thought about I want to more clearly than I, than, you know, than maybe I have in the past.

Nick:

Be like a brand that is for a certain type of person that they can come to rely

Nick:

on to being for them and like a marker of this

Nick:

we, I've always had in my career, but is a marker of quality and trust and veracity.

Nick:

And a time

Nick:

when that's less, it's, it's more

Nick:

challenging to find out.

Nick:

What's true or not?

Nick:

And you know, so, so that is the reason why there will be

Nick:

shows on YouTube with a connective tissue of Dynamo.

Nick:

And so that, you know, if you love what this one show, maybe you never try another show by us, you know, but maybe you, you see that it's from us, you see that we've promoted it, and you're like, oh yeah, I trust them and I think they're

Nick:

great.

Nick:

They're for me.

Nick:

I will go try that

Nick:

show out.

Nick:

And, and I, and I think that also, I mean, having a clear brand in that sense.

Nick:

And articulating it often, both externally

Nick:

and internally is really, really helpful for

Nick:

the people on your team.

Nick:

The, the, the, the, the storytellers on the team, they need to know who you're for.

Nick:

That

Brian:

So how do you think of format innovation, right?

Brian:

Like, I mean, are you, because I, I feel like, you know, YouTube in some ways the kind of algorithm sort of sets a lot of the formats,

Brian:

in some ways in that like even if you, you have to at some point like be almost reverse engineering back from, from the algorithm.

Nick:

I mean, you know, just like in the 1980s when you were launching a new magazine, you're reverse engineering from sales, you know, newsstand sales and figuring out what log lines, you know, whatever.

Nick:

So, I'm gonna try to use news, magazine jargon, like I know what I'm talking about.

Nick:

I've, I've never worked for magazine and I.

Brian:

Still time.

Brian:

There's still time.

Brian:

Nick could've gone in that direction,

Nick:

But yeah, I mean, yeah, we're gonna reverse engineer successful formats, but I think there's constant innovation and,

Brian:

but are you, are you thinking of like, 'cause I didn't s see, I didn't sense in the, in the videos that I saw, like that there was like, do you think it's important?

Brian:

That'd be like, oh, that's like a dynamo like format.

Nick:

look, we'll push it, and we'll get experimental.

Nick:

I think sometimes there's like, here's, here's my answer.

Nick:

I am never gonna be the entrepreneur who's like, we're going to wholly invent a whole new thing, and I'm gonna put lots of money and time behind it.

Nick:

I, what I'm gonna do is see kind of like what some people are making work and then make my version of it.

Nick:

And, and, and, and, and like try to make it my version and better in ways that I think are important, but I'm not gonna, no, I'm not gonna

Brian:

Well, those are the two paths, right?

Brian:

I mean, the two paths are like, you, you take like, what is working?

Brian:

You observe and then you, you sort of perfect it and you do it new.

Brian:

And that is like a form of innovation.

Brian:

And then the other is like, I'm gonna dream up.

Brian:

I'm gonna go in the lab and I'm gonna dream up something completely new.

Brian:

And people didn't ask for it, but I'm gonna

Nick:

But I

Nick:

think they need it.

Brian:

Yeah.

Brian:

I think they need it.

Brian:

And that's, you know, sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't.

Nick:

yeah.

Nick:

It's funny.

Nick:

Like, but if you try to rattle, I mean, you, you, you know, our, the audience will know this, but like, think about Google was not first search engine.

Nick:

Facebook was not the first social network.

Brian:

even come up with a paid search system.

Brian:

They had to, they had to pay off like Yahoo because Yahoo bought the company that like patented the paid search.

Nick:

you and I know what Overture

Brian:

Go two.

Brian:

I'll, I'll do one up.

Brian:

They used to be go two before they changed.

Brian:

Weirdly, they changed their name to Overture on September 11th, like literally on the day.

Nick:

wow.

Nick:

Brian, do you remember that we looked in the same company at one point at

Nick:

Jupiter Media?

Brian:

Jupiter Media, Alan Meckler.

Brian:

that's a long time ago.

Brian:

so yeah, so like, so you, you're gonna be on, on, on YouTube and, starting from scratch on YouTube.

Brian:

Like there's any platform.

Brian:

There's a ton of early mover advantages.

Brian:

This is not an early mover situation, Nick.

Brian:

I mean, YouTube's pretty mature.

Brian:

I

Nick:

Mohan knew Mohan

Brian:

there's this website I heard about, it's called youtube.com.

Nick:

I love it though.

Nick:

What I love about YouTube is they know what they are and, They know what they are.

Nick:

Their, their clients know what they are, their partner, their content creating partners there, I said that again, know what they are and their users know what they are.

Nick:

And because they all know what they are is a, like a stable, steadily improving better economic system over 20 years.

Brian:

have built the best ecosystem.

Brian:

I think it's really difficult to build an ecosystem that satisfies all constituencies you need, and particularly when you're a technology company that has to constantly change and, and shift and pivot and all that rest of that.

Brian:

And we know how, how that went with Facebook and some of the others.

Brian:

But I feel like YouTube has aligned the interest roughly the best of any platform.

Nick:

By the way, I just realized, Brian, I keep saying we're launching in two weeks.

Nick:

This'll come out right after the, so go to YouTube now, everybody.

Brian:

Go to YouTube now.

Brian:

so

Nick:

YouTube.

Nick:

But we are also gonna be on other platforms.

Nick:

That's, that is one difference between us and some of these very successful creators.

Nick:

I'm sure they are on other platforms.

Nick:

But I'd love to be on Tubi.

Nick:

I'd love to be on, you know, Yahoo's, OTT and MSN, and all these things like,

Brian:

Honestly, watching those videos, I was like, this, this stuff should be on also, not primarily, not only, but like on like seat back, like an air, air and, in

Nick:

we'll take it.

Nick:

Let's go.

Nick:

You know what I mean?

Nick:

You just, it is tough out here, right?

Nick:

We know that.

Nick:

And so you've gotta stack up every

Brian:

Yeah.

Brian:

Don't go to full John Steinberg though, don't wa you know, just like pump the brakes and you hit the nail salons network.

Brian:

but th well there, there is cheddar.

Brian:

I mean, did you learn at all from ch the cheddar?

Brian:

From, from what, you know, cheddar had, I think was, it was very different than this, but like, you know, I think they were early to a lot of stuff.

Nick:

Yeah.

Nick:

I have learned from Chatter.

Nick:

John is actually a,

Nick:

investor, of

Brian:

Oh, there you go.

Nick:

and what I, what I learned from Chatter.

Nick:

I mean, and also by the way, our, our executive producer, his name's Carl Mueller, he was the head of YouTube for Cheddar and CH YouTube was, and, I love you John, and I'm really glad you're an investor.

Nick:

YouTube is where they were actually watched a lot, like actual people found them and watched them.

Nick:

And so,

Brian:

Oh, the gas.

Brian:

The gas

Brian:

pumps too.

Nick:

Right, the concurrent, the concurrent business.

Nick:

John's, you know, so I'm so glad that he's an investor because he's an incredible, like, incredible salesperson.

Nick:

And I think like everyone in the world will acknowledge that.

Nick:

And so I'm just like, Hey, John, how do I approach so and so?

Nick:

And he's like, here's the game plan.

Nick:

I'm,

Nick:

you know, writing down notes.

Brian:

But let's get to the money thing.

Brian:

But let's, let's

Brian:

talk about distribution.

Brian:

How are you gonna get distribution?

Brian:

These videos look great.

Brian:

Like I'm, I, I loved, first of all, there was a BJ in the Bear reference in one, you probably don't even, you probably didn't, it went over your head probably, but for me, when I was like eight or so, I love that show.

Brian:

So it was very brief, but I appreciate that.

Brian:

And then the basketball one that the Belgrade Arena is down the street from, from where my wife grew up, so I know it

Nick:

Oh, amazing.

Brian:

a Serbian basketball game.

Brian:

They're insane.

Nick:

You Have you been to one?

Brian:

Yeah.

Brian:

I've been to one in like a very small, like not in the, the Belgrade Arena is like a modern arena, but I went to one, like in like the old part of

Brian:

town that, it was, they were playing, it was Red Star and they were playing against t which is a team In Montenegro, and it was really crazy.

Brian:

There was no flares exactly, but people were definitely smoking in there and there was a lot of flag waving and chanting, and the other team was like, underneath like a protective glass.

Nick:

It's incredible.

Nick:

So, so we have a, we have an episode coming.

Nick:

Oh, it's, it's live now or maybe live in a week.

Nick:

I don't know how losing track of time.

Nick:

But anyway, it's about Wise is why is pro basketball like this versus is unites?

Nick:

So what here, just to answer your question about distribution, One of the reasons I,

Nick:

raised venture capital is that, you know, the build is slow, but, sometimes it's fast and, you know, like, let's burn some incense and, and hold our hands up to the sky, and maybe we'll get like the algorithms.

Nick:

We'll just immediately send all the people at us.

Nick:

But you know, the expectation is it'll be a nice, slow, steady build as long as it's going the right.

Nick:

direction, and the economics aren't gonna catch up for a while.

Nick:

But you can kind of see that they will.

Nick:

And that's, that's why you raise money and, and, and also distribute the risk.

Nick:

And don't take it all.

Nick:

Take it all on yourself.

Nick:

And so, and then we launch another show, and then another show, and then everything catches up and we're off to the races.

Nick:

So the way you know, what matters on YouTube, just going back to the brand conversation, what matters on YouTube is you know who you're for.

Nick:

You tell them a story that.

Nick:

Engages them for a long time throughout the video, and then they wanna watch another video, the same person.

Nick:

So you're consistent.

Nick:

So I mean, people a lot of times complain about algorithms and I actually think algorithms have had a very distortive

Nick:

effect on society overall, but maybe not the YouTube algorithm, which that, if you think about that incentive, it's incentivizing.

Nick:

Engaging storytelling that makes you wanna watch more and it, and gets, attracts a certain person.

Nick:

So, you know, so that's our, you know, our strategy for distribution is to make really good stories that people wanna watch through to the end and then watch another one.

Nick:

And we have faith and there are, and it's more than just faith.

Nick:

We have like a, a, an evidence backed belief that that will then.

Nick:

Get the algorithm to favor us and show us to more people who are like the people who watched all the way through.

Nick:

and so, and so that's how you, you know, and are we doing a tiny, little tiny, tiny, tiny bit of marketing?

Nick:

Yes, we are.

Nick:

You know?

Nick:

and so, and that comes in the form of finding, YouTubers we really admire who have similar audiences in asking them to talk about some of our work.

Nick:

And so, but that's a tiny marketing budget.

Nick:

Mostly the idea is.

Nick:

We will make great stories and people will find us, and the algorithms will help

Nick:

them help, help

Brian:

Does that give you pause at all?

Brian:

I mean, 'cause you can nail, I mean, I guess like the distribution levers,

Brian:

are nick's like shifting in his chair right now?

Brian:

no.

Brian:

I mean, dis the distribution levers are, are less straightforward than they've been before.

Brian:

And like, as, like I said, like, you know, YouTube has, YouTube's been around and it's harder to like, like for instance, like, I'm not sure like who is, who is breaking, broken out from like YouTube outside of an individual.

Brian:

Like it takes a while.

Brian:

I thought.

Nick:

Not always.

Nick:

you know, I mean first, first off, we have the funding to, for it

Nick:

to take a while.

Nick:

That's the point of the

Brian:

Yeah.

Brian:

You have 3.5 million, so not too much, but just enough.

Brian:

It's like a Goldilocks funding.

Nick:

you're right.

Nick:

that's the hope.

Nick:

you know, and so.

Nick:

look, I came at YouTube through like a website publisher.

Nick:

Like a lot of people that you and I.

Nick:

talked to were like, we had experience making websites and by the way.

Nick:

Just to, to say out loud, it's a different era, but like when we started YouTube in 2015, it took us a year to get to 10,000 subscribers, 10,000, and then when I left, we had 31 million.

Nick:

So I. I have patience and I, and I have seen like it can take a while and then you can get there.

Nick:

I do hope that we're, we're not sitting at 10,000 for a year.

Nick:

I think it's a different era.

Nick:

but you can, you can see how like all media businesses, it's a not, well, not all, but.

Nick:

The ones we are in, they're businesses where you add by addition, not by multiplication.

Nick:

You know, you are people one by one.

Nick:

And that's, that's our, that's our job.

Nick:

And I do think the algorithms gonna help us.

Nick:

Just to say, there are lots of examples that I don't have immediately in front of me, but I have studied in the past of people who put two, three videos on and they're off to the races.

Nick:

How, how town is a recent one that's kind of came outta the vault.

Nick:

You know, you call them individuals.

Nick:

Yes, they're individuals, but they're also, they're just brands.

Nick:

Cleo is a brand.

Nick:

Johnny's brand, how Town's a brand.

Nick:

They came out, they started and Yeah.

Nick:

they.

Nick:

They maybe had some help 'cause they're kind of identifiable.

Nick:

YouTube stars from Vox and we don't have that.

Nick:

So maybe it's a little bit of slower growth at the beginning.

Nick:

But basically what they did is they did great work and got rewarded.

Nick:

And that's our

Nick:

plan too.

Brian:

Yeah.

Brian:

so let's talk about the unit economics of this, right?

Brian:

Like, so walk me through them.

Brian:

I mean, because like, I think everyone is, is kind of struggling with this, is that you want to create really high quality content, right?

Brian:

I, I said it, the content video, at the same time, you know, you have to make the numbers work.

Brian:

So walk me through what the unit economics of YouTube

Nick:

Alright, let me, let me, yeah.

Nick:

I'm gonna pull up our working

Nick:

financial model, but

Brian:

Oh, great.

Brian:

Let's do a screen share.

Nick:

I know, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Nick:

This will be fun.

Nick:

Okay, so I mean, like you just bring up unit economics and there's, and, and I think like my preamble is there is how much does the video cost to make?

Nick:

A single video and how much revenue can you get from that single video.

Nick:

Okay.

Nick:

And, I don't know if it's a great idea for me to get into numbers for costs, but it's, it's, you know, one really nice thing is that it's not, I guess, here's a good way to put it.

Nick:

I will, in the recruiting process, hiring executive producers.

Nick:

Hiring, hosts and, and so forth and so on.

Nick:

I would tell TV people what I wanted to plan per spend per episode, and they would go, oh my God, how do you possibly do that?

Nick:

And then I would go tell like, people who used to work at vi, not vice actually, websites that made video, right?

Nick:

And they would go, oh my God, you're gonna spend that much.

Nick:

And so there is this sweet spot where you can spend more than people were spending in the past on.

Nick:

On video, and I hope that shows in our work.

Nick:

I hope it looks like it's it's shot.

Nick:

Well, we are hiring great editors, we're hiring great

Nick:

cinematographers

Brian:

I mean, from my standpoint, like the, the ones that I saw, I'm like, yeah, this could be on a TV for sure.

Brian:

Like why not?

Nick:

and so, so there, there is that unit economics.

Nick:

And I guess what I will say is, We have been in the market to buy promotion from YouTubers, so I know what they're all charging and it's great.

Nick:

I mean, it's like, you know, they are, the, the big ones that are doing well are charging, two, three times more than it cost us to make an episode.

Nick:

You know, and they're sold out for quarters ahead, you know.

Nick:

Now obviously we all know that like that revenue then gets shared with whomever is helping them sell it.

Nick:

And then there's the cost of making, you know, So all that stuff gets cut in and the business ends up looking like a any other

Nick:

tight

Brian:

Yeah.

Brian:

So how much does it cost to create one of these videos?

Nick:

I know you're

Nick:

really trying to get me to say that

Brian:

Well, I mean that's the, that's the key, right?

Brian:

Is the unit economics of, of you have to get the cost down to, to, I mean, it's a hard one.

Brian:

That's what you're saying is it's another Goldilocks thing.

Brian:

It might be a theme, right?

Brian:

Like where you're not gonna do it like super cheap selfie stick.

Brian:

I mean, there's some, you know, that that's an aspect of, of the production for sure.

Brian:

But I think

Nick:

Well see, Brian, I, I want, I want our future advertisers to think it costs us a couple hundred thousand dollars and, you know,

Brian:

Okay.

Brian:

Yeah.

Nick:

no, but, but, here's what I will like, I think is interesting, is like I am looking at a line graph that this is literally from our fundraising deck.

Nick:

So I am giving you something I hope that's interesting.

Nick:

And it's like we look at the costs per hour watched versus the re the syndication revenue per hour watched.

Nick:

Right?

Nick:

And what we see is in the initial year or so, it's gonna cost us 14 cents per hour watched.

Nick:

Then it eventually due to the library effects, and obviously increased scale.

Nick:

and the network effects gets down to 8 cents, per hour watched.

Nick:

And then like syndication revenue per hour watch starts at around 6 cents.

Nick:

It floats there around six, seven, 8 cents.

Nick:

So, you know, part of the idea for Dynamo is that eventually even outside of like the direct sold world of sponsorships.

Nick:

The kind of the flow revenue, the everyday rev share we get from platforms will surpass what we spend an hour watched after five years?

Nick:

something like that.

Nick:

So, now we can

Brian:

five years?

Nick:

after five years,

Nick:

that's just from flow revenue.

Nick:

That doesn't include sponsorships, like going out and getting a deal.

Nick:

Right.

Nick:

So kind of what we're doing, I wanna, we're gonna, I hope to partner with lots of people, lots of, brands that are excited about our vision over the years ahead.

Nick:

I don't wanna be dependent on that business in five years.

Nick:

And so what's exciting about Dynamo for me is we are trying to build a thing.

Nick:

One of the things that's exciting is we're trying to build a thing that through its Evergreen Library.

Nick:

Is throwing off enough cash that it's more than paying for the cost of content that year.

Nick:

and so,

Nick:

yeah.

Nick:

Does that make

Brian:

Because you don't, yeah, no.

Brian:

I mean, look, the advertising business is great.

Brian:

Like it's high margin, it's great, but at the same time it's boom and bust.

Brian:

It's like it's, it's a roller coaster.

Nick:

I'm really glad right now that I'm, that we're, we have, we're venture funded for this period of time when I think everyone's pausing their budgets because of

Brian:

and the good thing with YouTube is, I mean, so you're gonna rely on basically automated monetization

Nick:

long term.

Nick:

Long term.

Nick:

That's a huge, I mean, long term, the, the, the revenue comes from.

Nick:

Rev share with platforms and o you know, OTT, and just when I say rev share for platforms, I mean, generally speaking, the better we perform with platforms, the

Nick:

more money we make

Brian:

Yeah.

Brian:

It's ad network money though, right?

Nick:

Exactly.

Nick:

Yeah.

Nick:

Right.

Nick:

And so, and then on top of that.

Nick:

Maybe there's a membership opportunity, become a dynamo.

Nick:

And then on top of that, of course there is the premium, like partnerships with brands around, around doing cool, cool stuff together.

Nick:

And then, you know, maybe there's product opportunities down the road too.

Nick:

I mean, obviously if you, I don't know what we could sell, people who call themselves dynamos maybe come, come

Nick:

something great.

Brian:

I mean, some of these, some, the economics of some of these businesses are like tremendous.

Brian:

Like I was, I, I got a hold of the, like the dude perfect, like investment deck.

Brian:

It's a really, they were doing like 70% margins, like at like.

Brian:

Not an insignificant size business.

Brian:

I mean, it

Nick:

yeah.

Brian:

to like 50, 50%.

Brian:

But I mean, in media it's usually like 20.

Nick:

No, there Are some very success.

Nick:

I mean, it's funny, I, I, I like admire.

Nick:

A lot of the media reporting that goes on, but it, it is funny how often it's about the next editor in chief at Vanity Fair or like,

Nick:

I love the Washington Post, big Admir, what's going on at the Washington Post, which is losing a hundred ish million dollars a year

Brian:

you talking about Dylan right now?

Brian:

This is all basically Di Dylan Byers.

Brian:

This is like he's, he's gonna chronicle legacy media until there's no more legacy media left

Brian:

Di Dylan says this.

Nick:

really amazing businesses being built on YouTube, the way that there were really great businesses being built on or on blogging, honestly, about 20 years ago.

Nick:

You know?

Nick:

So it's kind of, I think it's a similar stage where it's like you have these individuals doing really well, like whatever the, just off the,

Nick:

top head,

Brian:

And some of them, like on YouTube, like good, good golf, right?

Brian:

And some of this is like very neat.

Brian:

Do you know good, good golf, you

Brian:

know, great business, great business, you know?

Brian:

And I think one of the things that like YouTube does is it spawns these kind of businesses that can have ip, you know, and they can have like live events and various other things.

Brian:

I don't know.

Brian:

I mean, that's all totally down, but like, you know, there are, these are multifaceted businesses that are not just, you know, collecting, you know, the checks from like YouTube.

Brian:

and so, yeah.

Brian:

you're gonna be doing direct sold ads though too, but not immediately.

Nick:

I, I would do one right now.

Nick:

I. have a

Brian:

Yeah.

Brian:

Okay.

Brian:

Of course, yes.

Brian:

I, so would I. No, but you're not, like, you're not.

Brian:

Look, I mean, and you can talk to John about it, like John, like, you know, 'cause he, he is, I think he's the great, I think he's the best sales, person.

Brian:

I've, I I I've ever known.

Brian:

at, at least in media.

Brian:

But like early Cheddar man, he was monetizing out the gate.

Brian:

He was like drinking a Starbucks cup on his or Dunking Donuts at, on, on his desk in the, the interviews.

Nick:

I lots of great conversations with, I mean like I little, I mean they're like, yeah.

Nick:

I, I worked really hard to try to find a launch sponsor you might be like, oh, is that a great thing to say out loud?

Nick:

You know?

Nick:

Okay.

Nick:

I said it out loud.

Nick:

I think we need to, you know, have to have people see the things we make, but I do think John Steinberg, you know, would've been like just gotten it done somehow.

Nick:

I can't help but feel like, you know, I'm not

Nick:

quite John's level

Brian:

And I think it seems like the key that you do have to figure out a non-advertising.

Brian:

I mean, I know you can kind of say that like the, the rev share from platforms.

Brian:

It's, it is advertising.

Brian:

It's just an indirect, you know, form of advertising.

Brian:

but you have to also get to a fair bit of scale, right?

Brian:

I mean, this is not, like, this isn't a niche.

Brian:

Exactly.

Brian:

And I feel like a lot of the, a lot of what we're seeing people build these days, I don't wanna say it's like a lack of ambition.

Brian:

I love niches.

Brian:

I'm in a, like a very narrow niche.

Brian:

but at the same time, we're not seen as many people, you know, come out with, you know, big, you know, big swings.

Brian:

I feel like this is a, is is a bigger swing because you need, you

Nick:

Yeah.

Nick:

Yeah.

Nick:

This is big.

Nick:

Yeah.

Nick:

Yeah.

Nick:

We wanna, you know, we're business explains the world's our first show.

Nick:

We are already cooking up our second, third, you know, and then with plans to get to many more over the years ahead.

Nick:

That's, that's definitely the idea.

Nick:

And we believe in the network model.

Nick:

Like we think we can, you know, benefit from having, Great successful first second show that helps us have a faster, more successful third show.

Nick:

and, and then once you get that going, you can, you can really

Nick:

benefit.

Brian:

And so you have hosts, right?

Brian:

Are they like, are they gonna be like permanent hosts and they're, it's gonna be like, business explains the world with like Nora Ali or some like, or do you see a rotating cast?

Brian:

Like how do you imagine that?

Nick:

I think it's probably closer to a rotating cast.

Nick:

You know, I mean, Nora is amazing and very excited to be like.

Nick:

working with her for the, for the foreseeable.

Nick:

And, so our other hosts, and I'm not gonna sit here and name them all, you know, I love this person.

Nick:

I love that person, you know, anyway, so, they're all good.

Nick:

and, but you know, like we're, we're in a world now where people are like, not.

Nick:

heard you talk about this before, but employment is different now.

Nick:

Like the project you're working on is, you know, PE obviously some people wanna go into a media company

Nick:

and stay there.

Brian:

No, it's all LLC on LLC action.

Brian:

That's what I call

Nick:

yeah.

Nick:

And so, you know, our thought is work with work.

Nick:

We'd love to work with you.

Nick:

We think this is a great platform.

Nick:

And if you are gonna go do in a year or two or three, why I left Dynamo.

Nick:

Go be cle.

Nick:

Fantastic.

Nick:

Awesome.

Nick:

Good for you.

Nick:

That's really, really exciting.

Nick:

And we, and we hope

Nick:

people end up feeling

Brian:

But are you focused on finding like people to build into stars or are you right now focused?

Brian:

'cause like I, I knew most of these people and I'm not like super YouTuber, you know, someone like Kyla Scanlan, she has a following, like, she's like a brand.

Nick:

not all of our shows will be hosted in the same way.

Nick:

a lot of our shows will be either, what they call verite, you know, like just fo you know, like just natural sounds, natural dial, whatever.

Nick:

And then some of the shows will be vo driven and some shows will feel, like there's a real, like a narrator, you know, or a tone like hard knocks, you know, kind of feels like it's like a, you know, whatever.

Nick:

but this show we felt.

Nick:

to start with, let's start with some people who kind of embody the philosophy of Dynamo.

Nick:

The philosophy of Dynamo is that humans rose out of the muck.

Nick:

By working together to form civilization.

Nick:

And in the phrase working together, that's kind of what we mean by business.

Nick:

Like a contract is empathy on paper.

Nick:

A business sometimes in a effective good way shares risks and shares reward.

Nick:

it is a way to organize people to accomplish things, and it's creative and it gives life meaning and purpose.

Nick:

And also, you know, kind of like part two philosophy is the Steve Jobs quote.

Nick:

From that one documentary where he said that his breakthrough was realizing the world around him was invented by people

Nick:

who were no smarter than him.

Nick:

And

Brian:

it

Brian:

up.

Nick:

Exactly.

Nick:

And I love that.

Nick:

And I, so a lot of what business explains the world is kind of rewinding the tape or doing that, you know, cross-section books you looked at when you're a kid, how things work.

Nick:

And like, you know, I I have a sign on my desk here that says, business isn't the question for us, business is the answer.

Nick:

So it's like, wow, the world is.

Nick:

a certain way.

Nick:

Why?

Nick:

So we wanted to go hire.

Nick:

People who see that way, see the world in a similar way and see it from a perspective.

Nick:

And so it's not a show.

Nick:

I, and I love journalists.

Nick:

I worked with many of them at bi, but it's not a show that is hosted by.

Nick:

People who are traditional journalists, they are, you know, Nora's a just got off a run as a CEO of a production company.

Nick:

Chris Clark is an economics professor.

Nick:

Kyla's an economics influencer, journalist, you know,

Nick:

let's a analyst, you know, and then, and Karen, shed, yes, she's a traditional journalist.

Nick:

And, and, and so we are very open to having them on board, but even.

Nick:

That kind of person we're like, bring your perspective to this and kind of like infuse the show with that.

Nick:

And so I, I kind of wanted to, what works in this medium is sort of like passion coming from the host and, and genuine curiosity and like, look, the reason that, One reason

Nick:

that people like Johnny Harrison, Cleo do so well is like, they're like very invested in their story and, and they're telling it.

Nick:

And so we wanted to model, off of, off of that

Brian:

It's a slightly different skillset.

Brian:

I mean, some of the skills are, are there, right.

Brian:

But it's a, it's a different, I dunno, it might also be a different like mindset, right?

Brian:

I mean, you, it doesn't seem like you have interest in doing quote unquote hard news.

Brian:

I always hate the word hard news.

Brian:

Leche would always say hard news.

Brian:

I always thought it was dismiss, it was dismissive of the other, of the other news.

Brian:

That's what I, I didn't like it.

Brian:

But like, you're not planning on doing, you know, you're not gonna reprise the, you know, bill Ackman's not gonna come after you for, for this.

Brian:

That's what I'm saying.

Brian:

I can, I can understand not wanting to like go right back into

Nick:

Well, I, you know, I don't, without getting into Bill Ackman, I mean, like, I did enjoy, I mean, like, look, at the end of the day, if you're editor in Chief of Business Insider and you're doing journalism about

Nick:

wealthy and powerful people, every year or so, some very wealthy, powerful person is going to be very upset with something that the newsroom that you work with published.

Nick:

And, you know, that's part of the job.

Nick:

And, I didn't, it's not like I sat there and was like, Ooh, there's this.

Nick:

chaos going on

Nick:

this moment, but

Brian:

Oh, thank God a billionaire is threatening me on Twitter.

Nick:

it was always for me, a reflection or like, it's not like the goal, but it is, it is a sign that you're doing what you're supposed to be doing in a newsroom.

Nick:

And so I don't,

Nick:

I

Brian:

was your old job.

Brian:

It

Brian:

seems like this, in this model that's not, that's sort of

Brian:

not what

Brian:

you're, you're

Nick:

It's No, no, no.

Nick:

We're, we're not doing, we're not doing any, we're not doing inve.

Nick:

I think that you would call it investigative work and, and I

Nick:

think we wanna be, you know, like a word that I've heard used to describe the genre of YouTube is like educational.

Nick:

And I think that's right?

Nick:

I like

Nick:

educational.

Nick:

Has this like boring feel.

Nick:

Yeah.

Nick:

Like, but you hear boring education and you might be like, Ugh.

Nick:

But like there are, our audience is.

Nick:

People in their thirties, forties, and fifties.

Nick:

And I guarantee you there are people listening to this right now who are like, oh me.

Nick:

Because it always isn't a group who like have a great job and go home and to relax.

Nick:

They pop on YouTube to learn about how something works.

Nick:

And that's so many people and we are for them and they are, we are for the subset of that group who is like wanna learns how things work, but they wanna know.

Nick:

They like the answer being, oh, because of business or economics or because of invention and the creativity around career and company building or for those people, you know?

Nick:

And so, what can dynamo be someday?

Nick:

I mean, who knows where we end up, if with a lot of success, but let me just tell you, as someone who's run teams of investigative units, they're not where the money

Nick:

comes from either.

Brian:

Right.

Brian:

No.

Brian:

They need

Brian:

subsidized.

Brian:

That's the thing.

Brian:

It's like, but I think when you pull apart these models, right, you can like, choose.

Brian:

To, because to me, like in like regular institutional publishers, they're a bundle of a bunch of different parts of it.

Brian:

It's just like the, the newspaper was a bundle and like the food section was like, it wasn't like the Baghdad bureau.

Brian:

Remember when everyone was talking about the Baghdad bureau, who's gonna pay for the Baghdad bureau?

Brian:

you know, the Baghdad bureau is not like a profit center.

Brian:

Never has been.

Nick:

Yeah, I think, I think you're right about that.

Nick:

I mean, maybe it is for the New York Times because

Nick:

like, what is the New York Times other than

Brian:

well, when they shifted to a subscription model Yes.

Brian:

That, that, because otherwise, you know, advertisers have, have pretty much, I don't care how many, you know, op-eds get published or whatever, they don't, they, they don't want to be around that stuff.

Brian:

They just don't.

Brian:

And,

Nick:

yeah.

Nick:

And,

Nick:

I, I, you know, I am, I am doing like I'm doing this business because.

Nick:

I'm a journalist and a storyteller, but I'm also doing the business.

Nick:

And so I would like to have a really great business that makes the investors very proud to have put money in and, you know, also is helpful for me and allows us to grow and grow and grow and grow.

Nick:

So I do need to focus on, storytelling that is, I think, important.

Nick:

And by the way, like investigative work is very important.

Nick:

I do wanna underscore that.

Nick:

Like, I think something important is happening with Dynamo.

Nick:

Let me try to argue for what that is, which is that journalism has a trust problem.

Nick:

That's a cliche at this point, but it's just a cliche 'cause it's so

Nick:

true that people don't believe things that they learn from, from journalism.

Nick:

And so, And, and a little bit with respect to the oh, I don't know the entire planet.

Nick:

We don't know how things work anymore in a lot of ways.

Nick:

Like people don't seem to understand how things work and so.

Nick:

Dynamo by, by explaining the world through the lens of business is having a conversation that is not super obviously, or immediately or ever even I hope coded red or blue.

Nick:

I always think about, my neighbors here in Brooklyn.

Nick:

Would, you know if I, I went around and asked them, are, are you, are you in favor of like.

Nick:

Free and easy, immigration.

Nick:

And do you think that'd be good for the economy?

Nick:

They're all gonna be like, yes, and here's why.

Nick:

Da da da.

Nick:

I'm like, did you know that, that the Koch brothers, that's like one of the main planks of their, you know, and so like, I love that

Nick:

kinda like how business and the economy can kind of like just bust through this red and blue thing, just make you talk about the facts.

Nick:

And so Dynamo's mission in a, in a big way is to become a brand that people will trust enough to let, surprise them with facts that they learn in a context that they're more comfortable

Nick:

with.

Brian:

and the world is getting more complicated too.

Brian:

You know, it needs more explaining.

Brian:

I mean, just like with where the direction AI is going.

Brian:

I mean, I find like a lot of these conversation, it's, you know, at least the early ones, it's like there's only a small subset of people who can like truly, you know, understand all the details.

Brian:

And so to explain it, the, the explaining role is gonna be, I think, probably more valuable, in the future than

Nick:

How about, how about we all learn what a factory is?

Nick:

Again, you know, like that, that's a story that, that's a story that I'm excited to, we're figuring out right now.

Nick:

I shouldn't, I shouldn't talk about stories that we dunno if we're gonna do yet, but like, you know, we, we kind of don't all know what a factory is anymore versus an assembly.

Nick:

Pla it was like, there's, and like, where do the things come

Nick:

from and all

Brian:

you should do one on dark factories.

Brian:

Troy was talking about this on, uh, my

Brian:

other podcast.

Brian:

The, uh, it's, they're in China and they're just, they're completely, there's no lights on because it's all robots and the robots don't need

Brian:

the

Nick:

That is great.

Nick:

That's a great idea.

Brian:

I, you might have to turn the lights on for the visuals, but that's your expertise, not mine.

Nick:

Yes,

Brian:

All right, Nick, let's leave it there.

Brian:

Any, any final, any final thoughts?

Brian:

it's been great.

Nick:

I've said enough Go, go on for another

Nick:

hour, but

Brian:

All right.

Brian:

Well, let's check in, in like a year.

Brian:

I like to, I like to have check-ins when people are building these new things to see how things have changed and how they've evolved.

Nick:

Cool.

Nick:

Thank you.

Brian:

All right.

Brian:

Thanks Nick.

Brian:

Appreciate it.

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