Episode 199
The post-pageview media model
Jason Wagenheim has lived the full arc of media’s transformation, from the late-stage magazine era to the current scramble to build durable franchises in a post-pageview world. We talk about how the shift to mobile foreshadowed the AI disruption now hitting publishers, why Football Co is leaning hard into creator-led video and social distribution, and how the World Cup has created a rare commercial tailwind for a sport that has finally broken through in the US. Jason breaks down the decline of the website as a business model, the rise of branded content and experiential, and why soccer’s cultural moment offers a template for what modern storytelling businesses can still be.
Transcript
Welcome to the Rebooting Show.
Speaker:I am Brian Morrissey.
Speaker:This week is a Treat.
Speaker:I'm joined by Jason Wagenheim
Speaker:Wagonheim.
Speaker:I think this is your second time on the podcast, Jason.
Speaker:Second time.
Speaker:But the first time as the North American CEO of Football Co. collection
Speaker:of soccer slash football assets.
Speaker:For those, just a little clarification for American listeners and European listeners.
Speaker:non-American listeners, whatever, I'm gonna switch between soccer and football.
Speaker:I'm not trying to be pretentious when I say football, I'm just trying to
Speaker:be, you know, culturally attuned.
Speaker:And for our non-American listeners, I'm sorry, we call it soccer.
Speaker:That's just how it is.
Speaker:I'm not gonna change.
Speaker:I'm gonna try to keep everyone, happy.
Speaker:Jason is also a seasoned
Speaker:media
Speaker:executive.
Speaker:You know what that means,
Speaker:I've been around too
Speaker:long.
Speaker:I've seen
Speaker:also seasoned.
Speaker:We're media people of a certain
Speaker:this is one of the euphemisms, of journalism that, reporter like to use.
Speaker:yeah, he's worked at Bustle Digital Group, was an executive
Speaker:for, seven years, I believe.
Speaker:spent a decade at Conde Na.
Speaker:Publisher of Teen Vogue, RIP.
Speaker:I've been a dentist.
Speaker:You entered the profession
Speaker:at the perfect time,
Speaker:I did, yeah.
Speaker:the late nineties.
Speaker:What a time to intermediate
Speaker:It
Speaker:It was.
Speaker:It was,
Speaker:but up until the right since.
Speaker:it was pretty awesome in 1999 working for Maxim and being, I guess I was 26,
Speaker:27 years old and having a Maxim business card, and I was the first ever ad director
Speaker:for maxim.com and all my friends were going to this little startup called
Speaker:Google, and I was like, you're crazy.
Speaker:It's all about brands.
Speaker:Maxim's a brand, this Google thing's going nowhere.
Speaker:It's Netscape.
Speaker:Yeah, the maxim verse stuff wars.
Speaker:I mean, those of you who do are not around for it.
Speaker:You know, a lot was on, on the line, but when you look, I just wanna
Speaker:like, I wanna get into the football code thing, but like, you saw the
Speaker:end of it 'cause we're, we're.
Speaker:We're kind of going through this period, I feel like, of nostalgia, where we're
Speaker:getting like memoirs from the good days of the magazines and I love them.
Speaker:You know, I don't, I, I was never part of it, so I don't really know.
Speaker:But like, I like that lore.
Speaker:I think you need lore.
Speaker:obviously it's a completely different business now.
Speaker:But you saw like the sort of
Speaker:tail end of that because I, I feel that the financial
Speaker:crisis really completely
Speaker:ended
Speaker:it.
Speaker:Um.
Speaker:I think that combined with, look, I had a great 15 years or so, I would say 2010, 11
Speaker:is when things started to really go south.
Speaker:When social went mobile in whatever that was, 2008.
Speaker:And I remember looking at everybody at Vanity Fair and going
Speaker:like, oh my God, we're screwed.
Speaker:Everything's in the palm of our hand right now.
Speaker:And then 2010, 11, snap.
Speaker:Instagram came online and all of a sudden influencers who were babysitters
Speaker:by day were making videos on YouTube and getting tens of millions of views.
Speaker:When we, at Teen Vogue and and Vogue were barely scraping a million and we just
Speaker:got beat and got beat quickly, I think we made some mistakes as publishers that
Speaker:the internet wasn't really gonna catch on
Speaker:So talk to me about those mistakes because, Look, I think in some
Speaker:ways like a, there was a lot of execution problems with how media
Speaker:brands handled the transition from analog to digital, let's be real.
Speaker:But at the same time, they were kind of in an impossible situation to
Speaker:some degree, and I'm not even sure if this story could have ended up any
Speaker:differently with how the industry has.
Speaker:Lost again and again and again to the broader decentralized media ecosystem.
Speaker:I mean, there, the, the sort of stalwarts of that era are
Speaker:fighting millions of, upstarts.
Speaker:Right?
Speaker:It
Speaker:just seems like inevitable that
Speaker:this
Speaker:was gonna happen.
Speaker:You could argue the timing or
Speaker:Yeah, I look, I, I
Speaker:think,
Speaker:not to go down a rabbit hole on this, but
Speaker:the Conde Nast launched brands like style.com and concierge.com
Speaker:and epicurious.com, and didn't lean into Bone App or Vogue or
Speaker:GQ online, and that allowed.
Speaker:A whole universe of pop sugars and refinery 20 nines and busts and vices
Speaker:to launch and steal their brand turf.
Speaker:Conde Nass owned culture in the ops and way, way before, for, for decades
Speaker:before, and they seeded culture to brands that were invented by the
Speaker:internet or for the internet rather than leveraging their own brands online
Speaker:because they were trying to protect rightfully at the time their, their.
Speaker:Big kahuna asset, which was in on paper and involved the relied
Speaker:on the survivability of print.
Speaker:So I think, you know, to bring it home for a second, we're seeing some of
Speaker:that happening now with where the web is trending and where page views are
Speaker:going, and what chat g PT and generative AI are doing for to publishers, right?
Speaker:We're seeing this same cycle sort of repeat itself and why it's
Speaker:really important for companies like ours at Football Coach too.
Speaker:Be in all the new spaces and make sure we're following audiences and
Speaker:following all the new technologies that they're following along with it.
Speaker:So let's talk about that, that shift that that's happening right now.
Speaker:Right?
Speaker:Because we're in the middle of it and sometimes like we,
Speaker:I feel like we're in denial.
Speaker:We're in the middle of it.
Speaker:We're not totally sure, but like, you know, anyone who went through
Speaker:the shift from analog to digital.
Speaker:It took place over a long period of time.
Speaker:It wasn't like, you know, 1996 the lights went on and then all of a sudden, you
Speaker:know, there was a lot it, it took years.
Speaker:And like the dot-com implosion led to a retrenchment.
Speaker:There was a lot of people who said, ah, I knew this stuff was a fad.
Speaker:Let's get back to what we were doing, and I suspect.
Speaker:History doesn't repeat itself, but it certainly rhymes.
Speaker:We'll have some kind of like quasi correction, whether it's a bubble collapse
Speaker:and we're all living in caves, I have no idea to this AI situation, and a lot of
Speaker:people will inevitably do the same thing.
Speaker:They'll say, I knew this stuff was a scam, but when you're looking at
Speaker:the changes going on in the media landscape, I think we're in agreement.
Speaker:These, these feel structural, right?
Speaker:So how do you avoid making.
Speaker:Assuming that there was a set of mistakes that were made in the transition from
Speaker:analog to digital with holding on to clinging to old models, too long.
Speaker:Right.
Speaker:How do you, how do you end up thinking
Speaker:about where the opportunities are in
Speaker:this structural shift, another structural shift?
Speaker:I think we have to go back to the dawn of time with publishing.
Speaker:And what was always true is that content was king and we followed our
Speaker:audiences, the platforms we need to remain relatively platform agnostic
Speaker:and focus on building brands and building credibility around audiences.
Speaker:And then the dollars will follow and all the new technology
Speaker:platforms, they're just formats.
Speaker:They're just screens that on which we're building our IP
Speaker:and building our platforms on.
Speaker:So as I think about the future for our business, yes, it's less on.
Speaker:The, the modern version of ink on paper and it's going to be things like YouTube
Speaker:and YouTube video and leaning into creators and talent and creating IP that
Speaker:we can rally audiences around and then, you know, sell brands against the formats,
Speaker:you know, will, will continue to change.
Speaker:The platforms will change, but the credibility that goal, our flagship
Speaker:soccer brand has, and the relationship that we have with our audiences.
Speaker:That that is impenetrable by AI and other things.
Speaker:So we just have to continue to be where our audiences are and make sure we're
Speaker:supporting them with content that matters.
Speaker:I don't think the formula has changed.
Speaker:I just think the, the screens or the platforms have, and we'll continue to.
Speaker:Okay, but the clean to old models, I'm gonna put words in your mouth here.
Speaker:That's what I do.
Speaker:would seem to be around the words on, on web pages, right?
Speaker:Like, 'cause I think one of the big shifts, and look, you, you, you, you
Speaker:saw this of close at Bustle, right?
Speaker:Like the entire, like bustle was.
Speaker:In my view, it was built basically as a modern version
Speaker:of a Hearst or, or a Conde Nast.
Speaker:That was the outward, you know, it was like, we are going to
Speaker:have a digital metabolism.
Speaker:Where these, because they clung to old print models.
Speaker:They didn't have it.
Speaker:They weren't like good at things like SEO and those kind of
Speaker:distribution, a, a modern distribution approaches of the internet.
Speaker:Now all of a sudden it's, you find this all the time.
Speaker:It's not just bustle, it's, it's, it's Vox and, and and others where
Speaker:all of a sudden the upstarts become legacy like incredibly quickly.
Speaker:And it seems like the legacy business now is.
Speaker:Putting words on web pages and
Speaker:monetizing it with monetizing
Speaker:those words with display advertising.
Speaker:look, that that's exactly right.
Speaker:I mean, that's what's happening.
Speaker:I mean, the, I I'll give you the context.
Speaker:Our, our business last year in just 2024.
Speaker:was 40% media, so that requires users going to website, our
Speaker:websites, and pulling up pages that allow us to deliver ads.
Speaker:It's now roughly 30% media in 2025, and it will continue to go down in 2026.
Speaker:We're planning around that.
Speaker:Our branded content business is up.
Speaker:25% and now makes up 40% of our revenue mix, and that
Speaker:will continue to grow in 2026.
Speaker:Branded content that we create is distributed on all the social platforms
Speaker:on a CPV basis and guaranteed with views and impressions against that has nothing
Speaker:to do with eyeballs going to our website.
Speaker:So that's, that's where it's shifting.
Speaker:We have an, a growing experiential business where we've launched
Speaker:a merch business this year.
Speaker:These are all things that will help fill in the gaps that.
Speaker:You know, the, the declining asset, which is, is the webpage and the
Speaker:website, will, will allow for us to build our business on in the future.
Speaker:And we're very, we're very bullish on it.
Speaker:We're just, you have to be, you have to be super agile and just
Speaker:adapt with all these times.
Speaker:And that's what some of the legacy publishers or some of the digital
Speaker:media guys just haven't done or haven't been able to do as fast.
Speaker:And that's where, what, where they'll be disadvantaged.
Speaker:Right.
Speaker:so what attracted you to sports?
Speaker:You had spent your career really on the lifestyle.
Speaker:I know for sports is in some way, shape, or form, like lifestyle
Speaker:adjacent at the very least.
Speaker:It's different.
Speaker:And I think, you know, lifestyle itself is very challenged right
Speaker:now in, in the digital world.
Speaker:But what, what, what did you see in sports and why is sports
Speaker:so well positioned?
Speaker:I mean,
Speaker:relatively speaking,
Speaker:why is it
Speaker:so well
Speaker:You, you just look at all the, the stats around live sports.
Speaker:It's where all the investment goes.
Speaker:It's where the eyeballs are.
Speaker:Something like 90 plus percent of the top 100 TV shows on
Speaker:ratings last year were NFL games.
Speaker:you know, we know, we know the data around why sports is, is so important.
Speaker:For me personally.
Speaker:I saw the opportunity with the World Cup at the time when I took the job.
Speaker:It was two and a half years away.
Speaker:My clock on my desk tells me it's now 198 days away, my countdown clock.
Speaker:and I saw the, I saw the tailwinds.
Speaker:having the tailwinds of the World Cup, on the way to 2026 was a big lore.
Speaker:And then also, you know, I think I was hired for this job out of women's
Speaker:lifestyle and out of places like Conde Nast and Bustle, because what
Speaker:sports has traditionally been missing is the great storytelling around it.
Speaker:Most, most sports publishers, or most of those that carry the broadcast.
Speaker:Really just focus on news scores, analysis, what happens on the
Speaker:pitch for those 90 minutes?
Speaker:There's a great intersection of soccer in particular with pop culture in America.
Speaker:Fashion, travel, food style, music.
Speaker:All of those things intersect the sport and not a lot of brands
Speaker:are doing that storytelling.
Speaker:And that's what we're building this company around globally and
Speaker:in the US and doing inventing and creating lots of formats.
Speaker:Make the game super interesting and and accessible beyond the 90 minutes.
Speaker:How do we fill the gap between the match days?
Speaker:And that's, that's a lot of where we spend our time and investment
Speaker:from a content perspective.
Speaker:So for those who are unfamiliar with Football Co and with Goal, I can remember
Speaker:as like an editor, Digiday, our UK team, was always writing about goal.com.
Speaker:So I, I knew I started to know about it.
Speaker:explain the, explain the,
Speaker:assets that, that are
Speaker:under
Speaker:Football
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:So.
Speaker:We are a global football holding company, called Football Code that has a dozen plus
Speaker:brands Worldwide Goal is our big flagship.
Speaker:you can go to goal anywhere in the world.
Speaker:We published in 15 languages.
Speaker:You can find out anything that's happening with any player club tournament,
Speaker:any major event that's happening in football, soccer only all the time.
Speaker:we reach across all of our channels, about 700 million people every single.
Speaker:Month on a global basis.
Speaker:We have Cora, which is the largest, sports website in the Middle East.
Speaker:We've got SP in Germany, Calcio Meato in Italy.
Speaker:we've got a great business around our women's brands,
Speaker:which are Invis and Soccer girl.
Speaker:it's a house of brands, but all focused exclusively on football.
Speaker:We're backed by TPG, which is fun.
Speaker:they, they acquired the asset goal back in 2020 to launch football co
Speaker:officially, and we've been since gobbling up football assets around the world.
Speaker:On the way toward world domination in 2026, Brian.
Speaker:Okay.
Speaker:And the, the, the strategy is, is, well, well not like forsaking the
Speaker:website, but it's very
Speaker:social video
Speaker:Yeah, that is, that is most of where our, our big bet is on, you know,
Speaker:our YouTube channel globally is three and a half million subscribers.
Speaker:We have many tens of millions across Instagram and TikTok and,
Speaker:and Twitter and Facebook as well.
Speaker:Most of our output is social video that, you know, we're
Speaker:banging out 10, 15 assets a day.
Speaker:Just in the US alone and you know, really building our IP and our own
Speaker:exclusive formats that both support where fans are interested in how fans
Speaker:are consuming football content now.
Speaker:And then, of course our advertiser partners, you know, support
Speaker:and sponsor those assets.
Speaker:Okay, so most of, so is most of your distribution inevitably
Speaker:through platforms, through YouTube or through
Speaker:For sure.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:That's, that's where, that's what we've been building toward.
Speaker:That's where it's going.
Speaker:You know, and again, with a real emphasis on U YouTube, we, we really have a
Speaker:big bet that these, you know, talent creator driven formats, podcasts, you
Speaker:know, things like you do so beautifully.
Speaker:But, Others are doing in the sports space is really where, you know,
Speaker:our future is, is banking on.
Speaker:And, and also, you know, we, when we think about video, we think of
Speaker:it as typical a typically a fan led, creator led, or player led format.
Speaker:We're using one of those three, you know, talking heads as a way to create content
Speaker:for our fans and, and brand partners.
Speaker:Okay.
Speaker:So it's like, it's more, in some ways it's almost like
Speaker:more lifestyle oriented, right?
Speaker:Like, I mean, you're not, like, people are not going, you're not, you're not
Speaker:banking on people coming to you
Speaker:for, for, a recap of, of the match
Speaker:That's what the website's for, that's super relevant.
Speaker:So I, I would say like as, as gold.com is where soccer fans are
Speaker:going to get scores to follow the matches, to follow their teams, the
Speaker:play-by-play that happens in each match.
Speaker:And that's a very natural place for them to go and do that.
Speaker:That's in their feed.
Speaker:We have an app that has, you know, one and a half to 2 million
Speaker:maus a month that they're on for live scores every single month.
Speaker:Those are the things that really drive that ultra fan, that core fan.
Speaker:You know, lives and dies by their Arsenal scores and their Premier
Speaker:League scores on a Saturday morning.
Speaker:the social, the socials really fill the gaps.
Speaker:That's where the entertainment happens.
Speaker:That's where we inject humor and comedy into what we do.
Speaker:We really do a great job of giving fans a voice.
Speaker:You know, fan led content is one of our most important formats that, gets great
Speaker:engagement, and that happens mostly on Instagram and TikTok and then YouTube.
Speaker:You know, we've created a bunch of more studio shot, more premium formats
Speaker:that, you know, drive the, the long-term views and long-term loyalty.
Speaker:Yeah, Are you
Speaker:building
Speaker:like franchises?
Speaker:Yeah, big time.
Speaker:We're, we're
Speaker:launching, later in December, a major new show with a big NFL
Speaker:talent that I can't yet reveal.
Speaker:But, that's coming soon.
Speaker:we have a big, we have a lot of show formats.
Speaker:We've got a slate of about.
Speaker:Two dozen shows on the way to the World Cup that involve a lot of different
Speaker:aspects of storytelling around the game that brands can sponsor and that
Speaker:will build big fan audiences around.
Speaker:I mean, we really, we really think of R ip, you know, much like, we're
Speaker:programming ESPN or Fox Sports, you know, we we're, we're always on.
Speaker:And again, really thinking about.
Speaker:What the only thing we can't service fans with or advertisers is LED billboards
Speaker:and television spots on Telemundo or Fox.
Speaker:There is so much more activity that happens around the game between match
Speaker:days before and after the match, and that's really that appetite that for
Speaker:content that we fill with our fan base.
Speaker:Well, that's like a constraint that becomes an opportunity, right?
Speaker:I mean, you don't have rights.
Speaker:And so the constraint of that is like you can't.
Speaker:Rely on the highlights or, or selling those LED bill billboards.
Speaker:and then it becomes about almost like a lifestyle, like at the end of
Speaker:the, the stories like around sports.
Speaker:And I think one of the things that I think sports has, has gotten really right.
Speaker:It's like there's drama inherent to the games, but there's
Speaker:drama outside of the games.
Speaker:Trust me, I'm a Philadelphia
Speaker:Eagles.
Speaker:American football fan, there's always drama between the end of an Eagles
Speaker:game and the start of the next game.
Speaker:and that's just how it is.
Speaker:And I think that's what we see with, for instance, women's, basketball really
Speaker:taking off is there's really good drama.
Speaker:They've got good characters, they've got
Speaker:heroes and villains,
Speaker:and
Speaker:That's, what you need to break through.
Speaker:Totally.
Speaker:That's, and that's the storytelling that matters that you're not gonna see on
Speaker:Fox or Telemundo or the broadcasters, and you're really not gonna see it
Speaker:on ESPN anymore, or Yahoo Sports.
Speaker:There's so much happening in the NWSL right now.
Speaker:I just got back from San Jose.
Speaker:We were there for championship.
Speaker:The vibe in that stadium was just electric.
Speaker:But the four days leading up to championship on Saturday, there was
Speaker:a big award ceremony presented by at and t. There was a bunch of rages of,
Speaker:you know, parties that we went to.
Speaker:There were live podcast recordings.
Speaker:All the players are decked out, showing up at media days and doing their
Speaker:interviews and telling their stories.
Speaker:There's a lot of discussion whether Trinity, Rodman, you know, the
Speaker:American superstar is gonna go play in.
Speaker:Europe and, and lead the NWSL.
Speaker:There's a a big storyline around that that we're following.
Speaker:So there's so much happening, and it's our job as publishers in this whole ecosystem
Speaker:to tell those stories, to give fans a voice, to make these players famous.
Speaker:I think that there's a lot of room for soccer in America just to.
Speaker:Just to tell these stories, you know, what happens off the pitch
Speaker:with, with the men and women that are fueling the game here, that will
Speaker:continue to attract fans more so than what happens during the 90 minutes.
Speaker:If you think about soccer's growth in America, there's now.
Speaker:Something like a hundred million fans in the US according to US soccer and
Speaker:other stats, a hundred million plus fans.
Speaker:That's up from 60, 70 million just a few years ago.
Speaker:It's been fueled by welcome to Reim, Ted Lasso and Messi's arrival in
Speaker:the us coupled with the streaming access where you can literally
Speaker:watch more soccer in America through any of the streaming platforms.
Speaker:Then you can.
Speaker:Living in other parts of the world where soccer's more endemic.
Speaker:So there's a lot of access, there's a lot of excitement, and there's a lot of
Speaker:entertainment and culture that's sort of underpinning the growth of the sport here.
Speaker:all combined with what's happening with the road to 26.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Um,
Speaker:It's a great time for the sport
Speaker:yes.
Speaker:I think a lot of times, you know, some of us, you know, have,
Speaker:have been hearing about soccer being inevitable in the United
Speaker:States for 30 years at this point.
Speaker:I mean, the last time that the US hosted the World Cup was 1994.
Speaker:I actually remember it weirdly.
Speaker:I was in Europe
Speaker:Me too.
Speaker:the time, so I missed it.
Speaker:the US did okay.
Speaker:Actually, they, they got through to the round of 16.
Speaker:But, you know, the, the, it, it's like change happens like.
Speaker:Inevitably it ends up happening like in, in dribs and drabs, and then it
Speaker:like actually, you know, gets momentum and, you know, soccer has become a
Speaker:lot more popular in the United States.
Speaker:I saw some stats recently, You know, like you talk about a hundred
Speaker:million fans, but like, it's not the main sport for a lot of people.
Speaker:It's like a second or third sport.
Speaker:But the, self-declared favorite sport in Q4, 2024, American
Speaker:football, of course, was number one.
Speaker:going away at about like 35% basketball was in, was about 16%, and then
Speaker:soccer slash football at, at, at 10%.
Speaker:So that it, it has already passed.
Speaker:Baseball, which
Speaker:is still for some
Speaker:reason declared America's pastime and it's, it's simply
Speaker:not foot.
Speaker:American
Speaker:sport.
Speaker:pastime.
Speaker:It's, let's just be real
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:You know, I got asked a lot when I took this job.
Speaker:You know, why hasn't soccer caught out in America?
Speaker:And when you really dig into the stats, my answer just became it.
Speaker:It has, you're just not paying attention.
Speaker:And by the way, stop expecting it to be as big as American football.
Speaker:It's just never going to be.
Speaker:And that's fine.
Speaker:We can be very comfortable as a very popular number two or three sport here.
Speaker:And if you look among Gen Z, it's growing even faster.
Speaker:And Gen Z has.
Speaker:Hispanics, which of course is a super important audience.
Speaker:It's growing at a rate that's out, you know, over indexing every other cohort.
Speaker:So the growth is, the growth is massive.
Speaker:And I think once the World Cup is here, it will not be a finish line.
Speaker:It will be a starting line for even more to come.
Speaker:For the sport.
Speaker:If you, if you just break down this World Cup for a second,
Speaker:you know, it's 104 matches.
Speaker:Compared to 64 in 20 20, 22, it's 48 teams compared to 32 teams in years prior.
Speaker:So there's 50% more teams, 50% more nations competing.
Speaker:You're gonna have anywhere from five to 10 million visitors coming
Speaker:to America for it, spending $35 billion, 185,000 jobs created.
Speaker:I mean, it's gonna be fucking bonkers.
Speaker:It's gonna be like 104 Taylor Swift Con concerts over those 39 days in
Speaker:June, July, and I think America is.
Speaker:Only half ready for it.
Speaker:And I'm, I'm excited.
Speaker:I'm excited for what the next six months bring.
Speaker:because it just gonna,
Speaker:yeah, I should, I should, I should clarify that the United States is not, this always
Speaker:gets our Canadian and Mexican friends mad.
Speaker:Don't put American as your, as
Speaker:your nationality when
Speaker:you
Speaker:like enter Mexico, they get, they get pretty mad about that.
Speaker:You gotta
Speaker:put,
Speaker:are in Canada now too.
Speaker:they're like, you gotta correct that.
Speaker:I've had that before.
Speaker:I'm like, I thought that was the official, but like I got, I got
Speaker:I got mildly admonished.
Speaker:the United States is sharing the hosting with Mexico and Canada, but in true.
Speaker:American fashion, US fashion, we're taking by far the majority of the matches.
Speaker:that's just how it goes, but it is gonna be a different, it
Speaker:is gonna be a different, milieu
Speaker:than last time.
Speaker:Diana Ross
Speaker:was singing that, the opening the
Speaker:last time this
Speaker:happened.
Speaker:I, I think I forgot
Speaker:that I blocked that out.
Speaker:Yeah,
Speaker:So, it's gonna be a little bit different, a little bit different.
Speaker:Maybe we'll get bad money.
Speaker:but so the opportunity, I would think the business opportunity
Speaker:is, look, the, the right,
Speaker:like FIFA is, is
Speaker:is a good business, right?
Speaker:It's, it's well run.
Speaker:They monetize well, they would make like a PE firm blush.
Speaker:but now there, there's obviously restrictions around there's only so much,
Speaker:there's more demand than there is supply when it comes to attaching yourself to
Speaker:a massive event or as a brand attaching yourself to a massive event like, the
Speaker:World Cup and, I would assume that that is a massive opportunity for football co and
Speaker:for, for others that don't have rights.
Speaker:But can, can offer people an entry point, offer people offer brands an entry
Speaker:point to attach themselves in, to this
Speaker:without the FIFA price tag.
Speaker:Yeah, look, if you're a FIFA partner, you're spending a hundred million
Speaker:dollars plus for those rights and those entitlements and, you know,
Speaker:the sub, even the smaller supporter levels are spending 50, 60 million.
Speaker:I mean, it's, it's bonkers, right?
Speaker:Yeah, so we think of our TAM as first and foremost, the FIFA sponsors the endemics.
Speaker:They will work with us on some level, both locally and globally.
Speaker:That's your McDonald's, your Bank of America, your visa.
Speaker:Verizon's a big spender now.
Speaker:DoorDash just announced recently that they're a big FIFA
Speaker:supporter now, which is great.
Speaker:Then you've got your major soccer spenders, so folks like.
Speaker:Modelo at t Marriott, MasterCard, brands that that already have
Speaker:decided soccer's important for them.
Speaker:And then there's a whole universe of marketers in America
Speaker:that I call soccer Curious.
Speaker:They know the World Cup is coming.
Speaker:They don't really know much more than that.
Speaker:They haven't really come up with a soccer strategy or a plan to
Speaker:engage with the Sporter fans or players or clubs or whatever.
Speaker:And they know that they can't miss.
Speaker:This moment.
Speaker:So because the FIFA categories are so, so restrictive and so exclusive, there's
Speaker:so ma, there's so much opportunity for both the major competitors.
Speaker:Like if you are Pepsi, if you are MasterCard.
Speaker:You are going up against Coke and Visa Visa's, entitlements you.
Speaker:You don't have a ton of other places to go other than TV and
Speaker:outdoor and a few other spots.
Speaker:We help really satisfy the opportunity for brands to get the World Cup without
Speaker:having to cut that massive check through the content, the media, the video will
Speaker:deliver the coverage of the matches, the parties, the experiential piece is
Speaker:going to be really big for us next year.
Speaker:so it's, it's gonna be a, a great year and we're right in it now, I
Speaker:think, I think we'll know by March how our June July is gonna look.
Speaker:And then I'm gonna take all of August off after July 20th,
Speaker:I don't
Speaker:the day after the final.
Speaker:'cause I will be exhausted, but, it's, it will be a great run in the next six
Speaker:months,
Speaker:So there's some concern about the, the, the World Cup here.
Speaker:obviously it's, it's a fraught climate.
Speaker:We've got ice, maybe the border patrol.
Speaker:It's apparently more aggressive than ice.
Speaker:threatening to raid venues and why not?
Speaker:Um.
Speaker:I assume that your, your belief is that there's simply too much money at stake
Speaker:for that sort of unwelcoming atmosphere?
Speaker:Only because like, you know, I, I see, I see tourism has like
Speaker:plunged honestly in Florida.
Speaker:Like, it's shocking to me.
Speaker:I, it doesn't, I don't see it like covered in, in
Speaker:the sort of news and maybe it doesn't show up in the statistics, but
Speaker:it, it's, there's no two ways about it.
Speaker:It is, it is plunged and a lot of that is.
Speaker:You know, I think the economy is, is being propped up by ai, but a lot of
Speaker:it is also the fact that, you know, Canadians have no interest and I don't
Speaker:really blame them for wanting to, to come to the United States, much less Florida.
Speaker:and that has impacted more than I would've thought.
Speaker:Like, and you see this in, in, it's not a major thing, but in, in arrivals
Speaker:from, from other countries because, you know, a lot of stories just go around.
Speaker:I know I've just talked with like, you know, people like.
Speaker:People from Germany are like, I'm
Speaker:scared to go to the United States.
Speaker:Like, they're gonna go
Speaker:through
Speaker:my phone.
Speaker:I'm like, really?
Speaker:I look, I think we all might have these anecdotes and see what we,
Speaker:and read what we read on Twitter.
Speaker:I I think it will be a very welcoming nation.
Speaker:Come 2026.
Speaker:Gianni Infantino is the fearless leader of fifa.
Speaker:I encourager listeners to follow him on social media.
Speaker:He's highly entertaining and he is also the world's greatest politician.
Speaker:He has been buddy, buddy with Trump, since.
Speaker:Trump was in the White House when they announced that the, the first time
Speaker:when they announced that the World Cup would be coming to America, 26.
Speaker:They announced last week that they're gonna have FIFA Pass, which will
Speaker:expedite Visa approval for, anyone that's a World Cup ticket holder.
Speaker:There is a geopolitical undertone, you know, happening now with countries
Speaker:like Iran or Haiti that can't.
Speaker:Technically enter the country now for a variety of reasons, and there
Speaker:will be other countries that will be more restrictive to be able to enter.
Speaker:But look, I think, the doors have to open up and football
Speaker:is the world's great United.
Speaker:It is, without question, the most common language spoken around the
Speaker:world is, is soccer, football.
Speaker:and I, I hope and expect that.
Speaker:All of the amazing undertones of what soccer brings to culture and
Speaker:to the world will, will unite, will unite us during this time.
Speaker:I, I have to think that way.
Speaker:And I, and I, I genuinely do believe it.
Speaker:it's gonna be, an incredible celebration across all 11 USO cities and the
Speaker:other five between Canada and Mexico.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:How much are activations a part of your business?
Speaker:I mean, you, you were, you know, you had left bustle at the time, really?
Speaker:The, the, the change was already happening, right?
Speaker:I remember before
Speaker:the nylon
Speaker:house.
Speaker:during Art Basel, we, we had
Speaker:a, we we met up.
Speaker:you, came to one of those I remember
Speaker:your,
Speaker:your,
Speaker:place.
Speaker:but I'll do, I'll do anything to pursue a story.
Speaker:I ate a lot of really, I was remark, you know, some of those activations on there.
Speaker:I was like, oh my God.
Speaker:Really?
Speaker:Like an airline
Speaker:activation in a nylon house,
Speaker:party on a beach during Art Basel, Miami Beach.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:No, it's, it's a big, it's a big part of it.
Speaker:we have a lot of demand for experiential.
Speaker:We're launching a platform called House of Goal.
Speaker:It's exactly what it sounds like, two to three day pop-up experiences in
Speaker:the major host cities where fans can come and they can engage with, brands.
Speaker:They can.
Speaker:Participate in skills, challenges, trivia challenges.
Speaker:We'll close it down a night for big rages of, you know, parties that we'll throw.
Speaker:We'll have our live podcasts, recordings from there.
Speaker:It'll be a great moment to bring fans together in the cities, you know, beyond
Speaker:the fan zones and some more, some of the more official things that are happening.
Speaker:we just threw a big party following the NWSL finals in San Jose last weekend.
Speaker:Brilliant.
Speaker:Well attended, called it invis hq.
Speaker:It's our, you know, kind of experiential women, women's, event footprint.
Speaker:That's definitely where it's heading.
Speaker:So, as we talk about the future of this business and where it's all
Speaker:going for us, we've gotta think about getting our, our, our brands into some
Speaker:of these other spaces to be able to activate for both fans and, and brands.
Speaker:I'm wearing, a Lumineers collaboration, a Jersey, a kit that we just
Speaker:launched with the, the band to celebrate their 20th anniversary.
Speaker:this is a new and growing business for us.
Speaker:We've launched merch with Outcast.
Speaker:the Deftones is coming up.
Speaker:it's, Anderson Pock was another one that we did.
Speaker:They're all supporting some impact work that we're doing in local communities
Speaker:as well, but between experiential and merch, it's making up about less
Speaker:than, four or 5% of our business.
Speaker:That can be 10 or 15%, you know, in two, two or three years time.
Speaker:Oh, okay.
Speaker:So I thought, I thought experiential would be, would be much bigger because
Speaker:I, I guess I'm trying to get at is.
Speaker:When you're looking at, let's just say this is like lifestyle adjacent, when
Speaker:you're looking at lifestyle media, it seems to me these are mostly gonna be
Speaker:experiential businesses in the same way B2B media businesses are really
Speaker:events businesses in, in most cases.
Speaker:that seems to be the direction that you mean you guys were on that gen
Speaker:direction at
Speaker:Bustle.
Speaker:That Bustle is
Speaker:I think, fully.
Speaker:Arrived at
Speaker:They're all in.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:They've done a, they've done a great job of flipping the script on
Speaker:their business and going all in on
Speaker:that.
Speaker:nylon membership and what they do with W Magazine For sure.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:So is that the sort of future of.
Speaker:Institutional lifestyle media.
Speaker:And that, I mean, is that like, like you said, I think all of
Speaker:media is trying to figure out how, what, what is my right to exist?
Speaker:What is my differentiation in this world of millions of creators that is not, that
Speaker:genie is not going back in the bottle.
Speaker:and we started this conversation you had said.
Speaker:That, you know, a lot of, like the content ask publications, were simply losing to
Speaker:the that massive
Speaker:decentralized world of like
Speaker:creators.
Speaker:Yeah, I would, I would frame it as the future of our business is about continuing
Speaker:to improve the relationship that we have with our readers and our fans, and then
Speaker:the, the platforms and the ways in which we engage that relationship is what will.
Speaker:What we will be able to monetize and what will fuel our growth.
Speaker:So if we have a great brand that has great credibility and a, and a relationship
Speaker:with this reader that is indispensable, we can then go into experiential, we
Speaker:can create merch that they'll wanna buy.
Speaker:we can think about personalization on our website and our social platform.
Speaker:So we're just feeding them information that they want to see from us
Speaker:every day, rather than us curating what we think they might want.
Speaker:How do we.
Speaker:Use AI and other, you know, tools to be able to create better personalization
Speaker:so that they're only getting information from us that matters
Speaker:most to them at any given moment.
Speaker:How do we fill the gaps between match days with experiences, with social
Speaker:content, with, you know, and with, with high level talent and creators?
Speaker:That's how we think about it, that relationship we have with our reader.
Speaker:And again, that hasn't changed.
Speaker:That's, that's what publishers were doing a hundred years ago,
Speaker:that that's gonna fuel the growth of our business and for me.
Speaker:We remain platform agnostic and format agnostic.
Speaker:We're gonna continue to adapt with whatever technology and the universe
Speaker:throws at us so that we can keep building on that foundation with
Speaker:wherever our readers want us to be.
Speaker:I don't, again, I don't think it's like brain surgery, it's just that's
Speaker:how we think about everything that we launch is, you know, what is the reader
Speaker:value and do they want and expect us to be here in this space right now?
Speaker:And then the dollars
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:So why have a collection of brands?
Speaker:Why not just, you
Speaker:talk about like house of goal?
Speaker:Why not just like make everything like
Speaker:under goal?
Speaker:You know, it's, it's a great question and, one that we've, we talk about a lot.
Speaker:A big part of our strategy is to be a house of brands because not all
Speaker:football content is consumed equally, or there, there's no one size fits all.
Speaker:For football fandom, you have football culture and football.
Speaker:Pockets of football fandom in every part of the world.
Speaker:Even in this country, it looks very different in New York compared
Speaker:to what it looks like in la, you know, Hispanic commun communities
Speaker:versus more general market ones.
Speaker:So we like to have brands and content formats within those brands that
Speaker:service, you know, all of the different type of fan cultures and types at any
Speaker:given moment or stage of their fandom.
Speaker:From the casuals all the way through the super fan.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Are there sort of approaches that you need to take that are different for a, a
Speaker:US market versus
Speaker:what football Co is used to say in Europe?
Speaker:I mean, obviously, look, we're catching
Speaker:up here.
Speaker:I'm, I'm
Speaker:using Pitch
Speaker:and, and lots of
Speaker:kit.
Speaker:You know, we heard, and so, but at the same time we've got, we've
Speaker:got a ways to go here in America.
Speaker:We are not yet, you know, fully, you know, soccer, crazy.
Speaker:I think we need a. We need our LeBron James.
Speaker:We've never gotten our LeBron James.
Speaker:I thought Freddie Adu was gonna be it.
Speaker:I was all in on
Speaker:Freddie Adu.
Speaker:I mean, what,
Speaker:what, what can I say?
Speaker:Clint Dempsey?
Speaker:No, offense, not
Speaker:No, we've got some good players.
Speaker:We wessin McKinney
Speaker:and, and Christian Palisi.
Speaker:These people are not household, these,
Speaker:these are not household.
Speaker:These are not like Steph Curry's,
Speaker:Diego Luna is pretty
Speaker:great.
Speaker:He's on the way up.
Speaker:He coming up.
Speaker:Caitlyn Clark
Speaker:Women's College basketball
Speaker:needed Caitlyn Clark,
Speaker:Big time.
Speaker:Well, American Soccer needed Alexi Lawless back in
Speaker:oh my God.
Speaker:and, Land and Landon Donovan.
Speaker:so I, I, we definitely think about our, our content strategy
Speaker:is very different here than it is in other parts of the world.
Speaker:Look, it's football with a capital F in Europe, obviously, and you can't, you,
Speaker:you can't come at it with some of the.
Speaker:The snark or the, I revere or more of the entertainment value that you do here
Speaker:in the US American soccer fans, again, the gateway to their fandom is typically
Speaker:not something that happened on the pitch.
Speaker:It's happening with entertainment.
Speaker:It's happening in comedy, it's happening with celebrity.
Speaker:It's because Ryan Reynolds and Rob McElhaney decided to launch a
Speaker:little club, you know, Rex them.
Speaker:And they follow that documentary.
Speaker:That's the gateway to fandom here.
Speaker:So we build a lot of our content formats around that.
Speaker:We definitely have the diehards that come to goal every day to
Speaker:check scores and, and analysis.
Speaker:And we have, you know, we service them in a, a different way than we do the casuals.
Speaker:But I think the real way that the, the sport will be fueled here and
Speaker:continue to grow is with crossover.
Speaker:So when we think about the NFL, the N-B-A-M-L-B.
Speaker:There's a lot of great stories in there that intersect with soccer.
Speaker:There's a ton of investment coming from people like JJ Watt or Magic
Speaker:Johnson or Tom Brady who have all invested in football clubs.
Speaker:the, that's telling those stories and making sure that crossover with
Speaker:culture moment happens with soccer is, is absolutely what we lean
Speaker:into, you know, more than we do in other parts of the world, where it's
Speaker:much more rigid on, you know, your football knowledge, or nothing else.
Speaker:The other fun fact, just about.
Speaker:American fandom is, you know, I, I'm an Arsenal fan because it was the first
Speaker:match I went to 10 years ago in Europe.
Speaker:They beat Everton, like five, nothing, or five one, and I
Speaker:just became an Arsenal fan.
Speaker:I bought the kit and that was it.
Speaker:American soccer fans follow on average 6.1 clubs compared to Europeans
Speaker:who follow one to one and a half
Speaker:Well, because they, it should be sports fandom should be inher.
Speaker:I'm, I'm very
Speaker:biased on this.
Speaker:It should be inherited.
Speaker:It should
Speaker:be
Speaker:passed down.
Speaker:It's, it, it's like religion.
Speaker:And, and with soccer, it's just not here.
Speaker:You know, young Americans are finding, I'm an Eagles fan too,
Speaker:by the way,
Speaker:Fever.
Speaker:I am, I'm a Philadelphia Fever.
Speaker:I'm a Philadelphia Fever.
Speaker:fan, which was the Philadelphia, major indoor
Speaker:soccer league
Speaker:You're going way back.
Speaker:You're going way back.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:The Philly Union are a good team now in MLS, but it's just not the way
Speaker:it is with Gen Z. They're following players more than they're following
Speaker:clubs and they're, when a player like IMB Mbae goes from PSG to R Madrid,
Speaker:all of a sudden R Madrid jerseys become the bestselling jerseys in the world.
Speaker:And you've got kids running around every middle school in America
Speaker:wearing a Killian and Bape Ri Madrid jersey, you know, to start the school
Speaker:year like they were with Messi,
Speaker:Yeah,
Speaker:ago when he came to the us.
Speaker:Messi had the impact that.
Speaker:That he, he was supposed to have, because like, I remember going back, remember
Speaker:when Beckham like came to the us like it was like it was painted to be a massive
Speaker:like event and it kind of had an impact.
Speaker:I mean, you
Speaker:know, he and Victoria
Speaker:established themselves as like here for their business interests and
Speaker:whatnot,
Speaker:it did, it did, for sure.
Speaker:It did for sure.
Speaker:And
Speaker:Messi has had an outsize impact.
Speaker:There's no question.
Speaker:When you have, when you have the best player in the world, the goat who, you
Speaker:know, playing on your home turf, that, that impact is just absolutely incredible.
Speaker:The, the, the amount of messy jerseys that are sold.
Speaker:You go to matches, that are just absolutely bonkers and,
Speaker:and sold out when he's playing.
Speaker:there's, there's no one like him and there probably won't ever be anyone like him.
Speaker:And he's, he's done a lot to not just prop up the game here, but attract
Speaker:other players to MLS and, and shine a spotlight on some other talent that's,
Speaker:that's been coming from other countries and why we continue to develop our talent
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Do you think it's important for the MLS to be like, I mean,
Speaker:it's made progress, right?
Speaker:Like, but at the same time, like the level of play.
Speaker:In the MLS compared to what you see in the Premier League
Speaker:is, to me, it's not even close.
Speaker:Like I always just like, I'm not obviously like a soccer aficionado, but I've always
Speaker:noticed that like, you know, an, you know, you're watching the American team
Speaker:and the Americans playing and because the ball bounces a lot when they pass to each
Speaker:other and it's like completely glued to
Speaker:the, the, the grass.
Speaker:When I see non-Americans playing soccer, that's, that's
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:I, I, I see.
Speaker:I,
Speaker:always compare European soccer to like a beautiful ballet and, south
Speaker:American soccer is like a street fight.
Speaker:It's like, it's like, M Mar MMF fighting or whatever.
Speaker:MMA, you know, meets soccer and America.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Look, the, the level of play is definitely not the same, but the stadiums are full.
Speaker:The fan experience is incredible.
Speaker:The, the level of play is definitely getting better.
Speaker:We've had an awesome MLS cup with some great matches.
Speaker:Messi has had some incredible goals.
Speaker:Others have, as we head to M Ls cup in a couple weeks, like those
Speaker:are, those are great matchups and there's also great rivalries.
Speaker:I, I went to Elko this year, which is LAFC versus LA Galaxy at BMO Stadium.
Speaker:And man, it was epic.
Speaker:There was not a person sitting for 90 minutes.
Speaker:it was whatever.
Speaker:They have 25,000 people in that stadium, and it was just absolutely
Speaker:electric what was going on.
Speaker:And that's what I love about the game.
Speaker:You know, again, the, the level of play aside, the fan experience and the fandom
Speaker:that we're building here in this country.
Speaker:Is rivals.
Speaker:What happens in, in Europe in other markets?
Speaker:It's pretty incredible to see.
Speaker:I encourage everybody to go to a game.
Speaker:The best thing you can do before the World Cup is go to an MLS or
Speaker:an NWSL match in your, in your, in your city, and actually experience
Speaker:what it's like and you will get it.
Speaker:I took a very, Friend a, a very important CMO friend of mine to Copa America
Speaker:last year at Giant Stadium, MetLife, and we saw Argentina play Chile.
Speaker:He had no soccer IQ whatsoever.
Speaker:I was telling him all about the game and what Copa America was.
Speaker:On the way out, we got, there we're two minutes in 80,000 people all wearing
Speaker:messy jerseys and he's like, lags.
Speaker:I get it.
Speaker:I fucking get it now.
Speaker:Like, this is amazing.
Speaker:I need soccer in my life.
Speaker:That's, that's how it happens.
Speaker:Okay.
Speaker:cool.
Speaker:Go.
Speaker:Go to a
Speaker:match.
Speaker:I will, I will,
Speaker:I'll go to my
Speaker:first game since the Philadelphia Fever,
Speaker:Let's go see.
Speaker:We can go see the Philly Union
Speaker:next year and we'll go see the Philly Union
Speaker:Okay.
Speaker:That's awesome.
Speaker:so final thing is like, as I said, like it hasn't been the greatest
Speaker:stretch for the media business, right?
Speaker:And, for those who consider like, 'cause I think one of my concerns
Speaker:with this business is that.
Speaker:There's so much doom and gloom necessarily written about it, is that people will
Speaker:stop going into it and then you, you have like a doom loop that, that exists.
Speaker:Give me your case.
Speaker:As a, a media industry lifer, a card
Speaker:carrying media person,
Speaker:and
Speaker:that is meant with the highest of compliments.
Speaker:Okay.
Speaker:Give me, give me the, gimme the case for why this is
Speaker:still a fun industry.
Speaker:Gimme, gimme a case for why?
Speaker:It's a, it's a rewarding place to, to, to work.
Speaker:You know, for people who want to tell stories and market them and do things
Speaker:that are differentiated and create content and build audiences around
Speaker:those stories, like it still exists and it's still gonna thrive again.
Speaker:I think the format and maybe the way we go about doing it and creating
Speaker:those stories, or broadcasting them or putting them out into the universe will
Speaker:continue to change with technology.
Speaker:But if you're a creative person, if you have a a, if you have a hankering
Speaker:for telling a good story and you wanna put some sizzle around it for
Speaker:marketers and brands to support it, like there's, there's no better business
Speaker:and I'm still having a lot of fun.
Speaker:I love being in sports.
Speaker:I would encourage people to think about the sports media business and, and ways
Speaker:that it can continue to change and evolve with everything that's happening with ai.
Speaker:There's, there's still a lot of opportunity out there, and stories
Speaker:need to be told and audiences need to hear them and they still crave them.
Speaker:And that's what, I've always built, you know, every everywhere I've ever
Speaker:been, the last 25, 30 years has been just around that as a foundation,
Speaker:and I don't think that has to change.
Speaker:Yeah, and I also think like, it's funny 'cause I think that
Speaker:there's a big opportunity to take.
Speaker:The sports media approach and, and,
Speaker:apply it to other areas, you know?
Speaker:'cause if you think about the, the, the entire ecosystem
Speaker:that surrounds various sports.
Speaker:Like there are other lifestyle areas that that can be applied to.
Speaker:I mean, look, we're seeing that a little bit like I think TBPN is really
Speaker:interesting 'cause they're basically applying, it's more SportsCenter
Speaker:than it is CNBC to the tech industry.
Speaker:Like you can, you can do that across a bunch of different like areas.
Speaker:So, you know, this is a time of a lot of chaos.
Speaker:I mean, I wrote about earlier.
Speaker:Today about how it's a time for hustlers is anytime there's a lot of
Speaker:chaos and volatility, there's a lot
Speaker:of
Speaker:opportunities and the hustlers find them.
Speaker:Totally.
Speaker:You nailed it.
Speaker:Keep hustling.
Speaker:Keep hustling.
Speaker:Jason, Thank you so much.
Speaker:Appreciate it.
Speaker:Thank you, Brian.
Speaker:Good to be here.
