Episode 217
The Puck model comes to food
Former Athletic and Puck exec Max Tcheyan is launching Caper, a media brand covering the power dynamics behind the restaurant world. Max explains why he thinks food media is where sports media was in 2016, how dining culture has become a status marker for the affluent, and why he's betting that the prosumer playbook that worked for Hollywood and DC coverage can work for hospitality. We also discuss the risks of building a niche publication for an audience that would rather eat than read.
Transcript
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Brian:Welcome to the Rebooting Show.
Brian:I am Brian Morrissey.
Brian:very excited to, I'm gonna butcher your name.
Brian:Max.
Brian:Max Tycheyan.
Max:Max Tycheyan Yeah.
Max:Ch t's
Brian:It's very
Max:is silent.
Brian:Well, the E is the, the tricky part.
Brian:'cause Chean or Chaan, I actually went to YouTube to, there's, there's
Brian:conflicting SEO on this, so maybe it's something that you could,
Max:Yeah.
Max:Che Che, that's what, that's my
Max:friends called
Brian:I am excited anytime anyone in media is launching a new media company.
Brian:Maximus partners have done just that with caper.
Brian:It's all about, the, the power around food.
Brian:we're gonna get into the thesis of it.
Brian:Max is a veteran of the athletic and puck.
Brian:And, and I see, I see footprints of both in, in this model, but maybe I'm wrong.
Brian:max, just start off by what is your theory of the case like in media?
Brian:' cause you're launching a new company and a lot of people you could have
Brian:gone into commercial real estate.
Max:Well, I, for, I think, I feel really lucky that I get
Max:to keep building, in media.
Max:I, I find it, really fun, really interesting.
Max:Very fast paced.
Max:I think maybe, maybe my wrist profile lens to it.
Max:and I just love telling stories, so I want, I think first and foremost, I just
Max:feel like quite luckily I get to do this, over and over again and in different ways.
Max:you know, I mean there's so, there is so much DNA from the athletic
Max:and from puck that's coming into this, I mean at the athletic.
Max:You know, it was category specific and I think that was sort of something that I
Max:thought was, you know, obviously worked really well and and wanted to kind of.
Max:Go back into, you know, I think Puck obviously covers lots of different areas.
Max:That's, that's sort of, its moat as well, its ability to sort of play in
Max:between lots of different, worlds.
Max:But I, I think there's, a real strength too to kind of coming back
Max:to this common denominator of, food, restaurants, hospitality, and, and,
Max:and how sort of, you know, these different lens, these different category
Max:lenses now focus in, in that space.
Max:yeah.
Max:And when I. When I was thinking about what to, to build next, you know,
Max:I, I built this with Dan Cena, who I worked with at Puck, and we both
Max:had a shared interest in this space.
Max:and in food and restaurants and actually really what happens beyond the food
Max:and beyond the plate, I think that was what was most interesting to us.
Max:And so we began researching, the landscape and in a lot of ways, food media.
Max:Ha to me looked actually a lot like sports media did in, in 20 16, 20 17,
Max:when the athletic was, was getting going.
Max:And by, and by that it meant, it, it, I mean that it sort of felt like it had
Max:had devolved into kind of this world of lists and rankings on the consumer side.
Max:And, you know, these sites that are really focused on, chasing search traffic.
Max:And not necessarily telling, telling great stories.
Max:And so that was one really interesting piece of pattern recognition that, hit
Brian:Okay, so that was like the equivalent of the scores, right?
Brian:Like, I mean like in that like I think the athletic, the.
Brian:At the launch, at least the athletic was like, we're not gonna cover
Brian:like the, like what happened in the game is not, you know, what, what
Max:Yeah, no recaps.
Max:I mean, the athletic was about smarter sports coverage
Max:for, for the smarter fan and.
Max:And again, it didn't feel like in, in a world that is, that has got so
Max:many great stories and characters, it didn't feel like there was a singular
Max:brand that was consistently doing that.
Max:And you would, you know, you'd read a great New York Times story and New Yorker
Max:sort of Grub Street story, but there wasn't, I think the consistent dedication
Max:to, hey, let's, let's cover the industry and let's do it in a really smart way
Max:to, to tell these stories and, and really cover the, the business of this world.
Brian:Okay.
Brian:but the, let's, let's just return to the theory of the case though, right?
Brian:Like, so at the athletic, subscriptions and, and puck, right?
Brian:Subscriptions.
Brian:Plus ads.
Brian:I mean, the ads came subsequently to, the athletic, are always part of, of puck.
Brian:And I think be being like narrow and focusing on an affluent
Brian:audience, I feel like is, is that, and then the prosumer part of it,
Max:Well, so yeah,
Brian:for with puck?
Brian:That, that, that, I don't know, like I'm trying to unpack the elements that
Brian:went into what, what makes up caper.
Max:Totally.
Max:And, and so lemme start on that last point.
Max:So, so first we kind of examined the consumer side of food media and kind
Max:of felt like we saw this consistency where again, there wasn't, it was list
Max:rankings, service journalism, reviews, criticism, recipes, and not really any,
Max:really consistently great storytelling.
Max:Then we started thinking about yeah, what we, certainly what we did at Puck
Max:and the worlds of, Hollywood fashion, you know, business politics and how, we
Max:approached the professional class there in a way that was very, very different
Max:than the way the trades had previously, where it was, you know, and, and so
Max:when we, I think it was voice here, it was certainly personality driven, a
Max:lot more opinion, a lot more analysis.
Max:obviously Bella's done, you know, an incredible job, you know, leading
Max:that there at Puck and, In food, the B2B landscape was incredibly
Max:utility driven more than anything.
Max:So for, and, and almost almost focused on proprietors and how they can
Max:improve their, their businesses, but not necessarily tell their stories.
Max:Right?
Max:And so we look at the, and we, so then we sort of saw that and we were
Max:like, okay, well there's lots of interesting stories here again, that
Max:are str strategic business stories about how to succeed in this world.
Max:And, and then there's also incredible characters that are
Max:behind all, all of these things.
Max:So let's, let's create that universe and let's bring that to light and
Max:let's cover it more in depthly.
Max:And, and, and we started to really circle the, these hospitality
Max:groups, which I think are incredible businesses, with incredible leadership.
Max:But you really only, at least, I only really knew about
Max:the person at the very top.
Max:You know, you know who Danny Myers is, right?
Max:You don't know any, like really that many, anyone else.
Max:And so I was like, well, let's start to look at this, this layer of this executive
Max:layer that's, that's below that, but is got their finger on the pulse of the
Max:business, making huge decisions, leading things going on, and starting new things.
Max:And so I was like, oh, maybe that is the, the wedge in.
Max:And beginning to cover that more in depthly.
Max:and in some ways they're, they're like, they're like the producers,
Max:you know, in Hollywood and covering that class more, more in depthly.
Max:We do think a lot about, you know, producers as sort of these
Max:hospitality groups and agents.
Max:you know, with, you know, maybe with the comms groups in this
Max:world and, and even then, and then the chefs, as the actors, right.
Max:And the stars.
Max:And I think that analogy is really interesting for us in terms of
Max:our, how we're gonna cover this.
Max:So, so we kind of then identified that space and that, and so I'm
Max:going back to then the consumer side.
Max:And that then began to circle this prosumer world where again, we felt it
Max:was lagging in, in both departments.
Max:And that's very, yeah, reminiscent of, of, of puck.
Max:and, and kind of how that, that coverage area came about.
Brian:Okay.
Brian:So it's like, I, I think that the Hollywood comparison is, is an
Brian:apt one, is an interesting one.
Brian:but it, it, you know, restaurants are everywhere.
Brian:I assume like it just, I've It's only been what, like a, a week or so, like,
Brian:so a lot of it is very New York centric.
Max:We're actually, we're launching this site today, actually.
Max:There's a lot going
Brian:Okay.
Brian:Well, I've been getting the emails,
Max:we've been publishing, we've been publishing newsletter only,
Max:but now the site will be live.
Max:and yes, to your point, like we're, we're, we are very New York centric.
Max:you know, Emma, Annie, Chris, you know, the whole team is all here.
Max:Dana.
Max:But we think that we'll be, I mean, we have contributors in
Max:different parts of the country, in different parts of the, the
Brian:so you're gonna cover other restaurant food scenes.
Brian:Would you say it's food scenes or
Max:I, so the way that we want to travel, so to speak, is, is to always anchor in,
Max:In the category that then will turn its lens towards restaurants and hospitality.
Max:And by that I mean like it's, it's a real estate story, right?
Max:Or it's a business story or it's a media story.
Max:Right.
Max:And that's the, that's the actual anchor of the
Brian:in New York is a real estate story.
Max:In a lot of ways restaurants are a real estate business.
Max:Like that is a very, very, you know, fair, fair point.
Max:But I think, I think that's how you, we want to be anchoring our coverage
Max:and then you can spoke out to lots of different parts of the world, right.
Max:Just based on that.
Max:And that's, that is a lot of our audience strategy.
Max:I mean, certainly, you know.
Max:Chris, Annie give us great connectivity in the space they both come from.
Max:You know, Chris, Chris Crowley was at, grub Street for 10, for 10 plus years.
Max:Emma Orlow, was at Eater and, and, and has lots of other, bylines,
Max:but has been in, in food media.
Max:and they give us great connectivity in this space.
Max:But then we think about, you know, Annie Armstrong, who came from Artnet, right?
Max:And we're saying to Annie, Hey, you know.
Max:Let's have you focus on what's going on the walls in these places, right?
Max:And, you know, the decisions about the design, about what's on the walls and
Max:about where it comes from, who it's from.
Max:and we think that's an interesting angle to now take your category
Max:expertise and your, you know, your network really, and turn it towards
Max:food, restaurants, and hospitality.
Max:And I think there's an opportunity to do something similar, you
Max:know, in real estate, in business.
Max:In media.
Max:I mean, I think media on food media is a really, really interesting
Max:category and I think that's, I think that's a more interesting than media
Max:on media, you know, in some ways.
Max:And bigger and bigger than, right?
Max:It's like, but it's, you know, it's like the creator economy, the
Max:cookbook, the cookbook economy, right?
Max:Like all the stuff that's getting, getting created for film and television, right?
Max:That, that, again, this common denominator that we can all relate to.
Max:And it's such a lived experience of, of food and, and these,
Max:these places that we go.
Max:So that's a bit about the audience that, that we think, and, and at the end of
Max:the day, like we, we should be, we're gonna serve the professional class,
Brian:Yes, that's the point is who are you going to be essential to?
Brian:Because I feel like these days when you launch, you have to be
Brian:essential to a group of people.
Brian:I don't care if it's 30 or 300 or 3000 or 30,000, it's not
Brian:gonna be like 30 million anymore.
Brian:who is it going to be essential to?
Brian:Because my.
Brian:My concern with any sort of prosumer model is that it gets caught in between.
Brian:It's neither, it's neither B2B nor B2C.
Brian:It's something in the mushy middle.
Brian:It's not, it doesn't have the, the, the, the, it doesn't have a
Brian:wide enough aperture to capture, the, the sort of consumer dollars.
Brian:But then it's not like narrow and deep enough to, to get the sort
Brian:of corporate expense account,
Max:Mm-hmm.
Max:Well, we're, you'll, you'll see our, our tier and we do have a professional tier.
Max:That's gonna be, you know, higher priced.
Max:But I, I'd say that our, our core audience is these hospitality groups and people
Max:working in and navigating a career in, in the food restaurant, hospitality industry.
Max:And again, I think that, that we can tell their stories, give them, give them space
Max:to tell their sports stories in new ways.
Max:cover them, you know, in interesting ways.
Max:And also provide professional products for that class.
Max:So at the end of the day, that is the core and, and our belief is that if
Max:we're serving the pros in this industry, well there is a consumer class that will
Max:actually find that incredibly interesting and, and want that same level of access
Max:and knowledge base that they can use, in their own lives to to leverage.
Max:And, and I think about the professional class, you know,
Max:like, like yourself, right?
Max:Who, who dines for sport, right?
Max:And wants greater level of intimacy with these places they go.
Max:And reading caper should help you become a better patron because
Max:of the knowledge you'll gain about these places you're going.
Max:So knowing the na, knowing the Mare D's name, like for instance, I think that's
Max:like a really, really interesting, you know, component of all this.
Max:It's gonna help you have, show up at these places, have better manners.
Max:Know who you're, know, who's doing the work behind the scenes and, and actually
Max:experience these places much more intimately than you would have otherwise.
Brian:Okay.
Brian:Yeah, I mean, if you can still like grease the mare d with like, you
Brian:know, 2020, I don't know, like, I mean, to get a table, I, I don't, I
Brian:don't deal with resi or any of that.
Brian:Like, New York, restaurants have become almost unu as unusable as,
Brian:webpages, because of these, this idiotic restaurants, reservation system.
Brian:But we can talk about that later.
Brian:So you're charging a hundred dollars a year for, for.
Brian:I guess basically on the consumer side and then, and then $300 a year,
Brian:2 99, for the, the professional and the professional comes with, I mean,
Brian:it says professional products to navigate the hospitality industry.
Brian:you get in-person event, invitations and.
Brian:Additional dispatches focused on profiles and business reporting.
Brian:so yeah, so it's to be essential to the people within the industry
Brian:that do this for a living.
Brian:Right.
Brian:And then the outer rung is people who are just into, The
Brian:culture of like restaurants.
Brian:I mean, to me it's like, if you think about like the business of sports
Brian:has beco, is it ha has prosumer heat?
Brian:Like, you know, Politico made politics, you know, have that.
Brian:I mean, at the time now it's like accepted, but it, it was,
Brian:politics was not like a, a consumer, category like it is now.
Brian:is that like sort of fair?
Max:Absolutely.
Max:I mean, I think, I think there is a class a prof, a professional class
Max:that is, you know, that is out, that it does not work in the space, but
Max:they are out and these restaurants, and this is where deals are, these are,
Max:this is where deals are getting done.
Max:And so they, they have, they're incredibly enthusiastic about this space.
Max:They, they might even be.
Max:You know, supporting them in, in investment rounds, right?
Max:Writing a check to, to someone to support, you know, the
Max:restaurant for, for that, purpose.
Max:And I think that's the, the enthusiast that actually is pretty prevalent in some
Max:of these, you know, in New York and Los Angeles, Miami, all these food capitals.
Max:and so yeah, that's, that's definitely who we're, we're after.
Max:And I think if we cover the world for professionals.
Max:That class of people will be served as well.
Brian:Yeah, and there's certain industries that lend itself to this.
Brian:And I think food could be one.
Brian:I hadn't like, thought about it as, as, as one, but even like real
Brian:estate, like real deal in some ways.
Brian:Like they're a little bit more hardcore, B2B, but a lot of their stuff flexes into,
Brian:because everyone's interested in real estate, at least in New York or Miami.
Brian:Like there's, everyone's interested in real estate and there's a, and there's,
Brian:there's, there's amazing stories within.
Brian:The, the real estate world, there's a lot of like crazy characters.
Brian:I mean, I don't know if
Brian:anyone's seen the
Max:it's, it's a great comp, and I've been trading notes
Max:with Amir on this stuff.
Max:He, he's been awesome.
Max:it's absolutely a, a good comp.
Max:I mean, that's a li those are shared.
Max:Lived experiences that many people can relate to, just like going out to
Max:eat and, you know, the accessibility is something not to be lost as well.
Max:Like, you know, it's a lot more prohibitive to go and pay a ton of money
Max:to get put, put art on the wall, right?
Max:Like that's versus, you know, going out to eat that's a lot more
Max:accessible, you know, in a way to, to express taste and, and have status
Max:and, and be sort of in, in culture.
Brian:Yeah, and food has, and food has risen up the sort of cultural hierarchy, I
Brian:feel like, in the last like 10 plus years.
Brian:I don't, I'm not, I have no evidence for that, but that's, that's my vibe.
Brian:Check.
Max:The evidence is, is the, you know, art, art imitating
Max:life or life imitating art.
Max:Like, look at all the production that comes that's focused on
Max:food, it's sports and food, right?
Max:It's like, look at all the production that happens around, these shows.
Max:And I think that's, I think that's a little bit of the, that evidence.
Max:Yeah.
Brian:So let's talk about the business model.
Brian:It's gonna be subs and ads.
Brian:Yeah.
Max:Subs and ads.
Max:yeah.
Max:Diversified revenue mixed from the start.
Max:And, an events program from, from day one.
Max:What we'll do our first next month.
Max:And then over time, we really want to develop our, our IP muscle.
Max:We think we're, you know, gonna be telling, you know, really great stories
Max:and how can we, create that muscle that is developing them on a consistent
Max:base and in into, different formats.
Brian:Right.
Brian:So I mean, like, look, it's, it, it just happened.
Brian:But like I could imagine, you know, the, the sort of rise and fall of
Brian:like, Noma being like a, an IP project that, Had you been, had, had caper
Brian:been around through the whole, drama?
Brian:There's, I've had people don't know, there's this drama that's been swirling
Brian:around, Noma just like a, a famous restaurant in, in, it's in Copenhagen,
Max:Mm-hmm.
Max:Mm-hmm.
Brian:and that can lend it.
Brian:'cause again, these are like outsized ca characters.
Brian:I mean, we're, we're used to the sort of outsized characters of, of chefs.
Brian:thanks to a lot of, documentaries and TV shows.
Max:Crowley got kind of got a local take on that.
Max:I mean, we certainly.
Max:You know, New York Times had that, you know, blockbuster for sure.
Max:But then Chris, kind of went a little bit so beyond the story and, and got
Max:the local flavor of how, how the local newspapers were covering it, which I
Max:thought that was an interesting approach.
Brian:Yeah.
Brian:so tell me what you've learned then with the athletic and then puck with
Brian:subs as like a base for the business.
Brian:'cause you're launching with, I mean, again, I got a few of the
Brian:newsletters, but now I gotta pay.
Brian:Right.
Max:Right.
Brian:but you're launching with subs.
Brian:And talk to me about how you, like, what are, what are, what are the
Brian:sort of lessons you've learned from, from, from your previous experiences
Brian:that you're applying to this model?
Max:Yeah.
Max:Well, it's, it is porting audience, with the right talent.
Max:I think that's, that's really important.
Max:And that was certainly the name of the game at The Athletic, you know,
Max:I think the local sports writer.
Max:Wa had in, had incredible loyalty.
Max:I think that's something that maybe, I don't know if it exists in a, in a profile
Max:of writer in, in any other, other class.
Max:And, and I think the reason for that was that the local sports writer,
Max:many cases got their, got their dream job at a very early age and stayed.
Max:They became the local, you know, local sports writer at the Chicago Tribune
Max:or, or, or whatever, local newspaper.
Max:And then were there for the next 20 years and literally developed legacy readership.
Max:You know, dad, the sun read it, you know, the sun like, and, and so when we began
Max:at the athletic, you know, taking those journalists out of the, out of newspapers
Max:and putting them behind the athletic paywall, their audience did transfer.
Max:Very, very well.
Max:You know, and so that's where subscriptions came from.
Max:And then you saw the scale of the athletic and you know, how we expanded
Max:and we basically went city to city and and, and had this go to market
Max:strategy that worked incredibly well.
Max:you know, puck in some cases similar, but not the same scale, right?
Max:It was, it was a little bit more about, you know, finding the top journalist in,
Max:in all these different, fields and, and really, again, certainly leveraging their
Max:distribution and, and speaking to their audience, trying to bring them over.
Max:But in many cases that those journalists just were a different,
Max:you know, they, they represented a different, profile because they.
Max:They moved around to lots of different publications over
Max:the course of their career.
Max:So they, and they probably sh, you know, shed some audience along the
Max:way or, you know, they were able to develop their own personal brand
Max:along the way and then keep, keep more and more audience with them.
Max:So I, I think, you know, again, and that's probably, that is in a lot
Max:of ways why at the Athletic, we were able to be subscription only, right?
Max:And then.
Max:At Puck, we were diversified revenue from day one.
Max:Now, now the athletic under the New York Times also has an advertising layer.
Max:But at, for, you know, up until acquisition, it was a
Max:pure, pure subscription play.
Max:at Puck it was, you know, advertising plus subscription, and that was
Max:necessary, in order to, to support that, that, that team and that talent.
Max:and I think, I think right now at, at this scale, You know, with Caper, it's, it's
Max:similar, it's, it's, you know, small team.
Max:We think, top voices in, in a couple of different areas, covering the space
Max:and, and making sure that we're, we're really, diversified, you know, both
Max:with advertising and subscription.
Max:I think the events component's gonna be really important here.
Max:Obviously this category lends incredibly well to it, and
Max:so we want to lean into that.
Max:you've
Brian:Wait, does it, wait, does, so let me ask you this, does it lend into this?
Brian:Because here's my like, sort of counterpoint to it.
Brian:Rafat Ali had told this to me one time 'cause he had a food publication
Brian:for a little bit and he was like, the problem with it is in B2B, you're,
Brian:you're gonna do events and everything, but they're always in the kitchen.
Brian:They can't take like a, a night off.
Brian:They can't take a day off.
Brian:Like, they're constantly in the kitchen.
Brian:So like, we couldn't get, so he was like, the problem is the hours.
Brian:'cause if you work, if you, if you're in the business, you're,
Brian:you're, tied up too much.
Brian:That was
Max:Yeah, we, I don't know if we've found that yet.
Max:I mean, you know, our events program it one, one of them is going to be.
Max:This really unique event that showcases, top chefs from around the city,
Max:basically in a cooking competition style.
Max:you, you know, in, in different rooms around the city.
Max:And these might be fairly unexpected rooms where you wouldn't expect to
Max:get, an amazing meal cooked for you.
Max:And, you know, we're fortunate to have a great partner there and the connectivity.
Max:So far is makes us believe differently that these, they are accessible,
Max:they're highly competitive, you know, they like, want to be in these rooms.
Max:They want to test out new things.
Max:They want to just straight up win.
Brian:So wait, so this is like, this is a type of event that you're gonna be
Brian:doing this, this like chefs are competing.
Brian:Is this like a consumer event or is this for people who are like
Max:well it's, it's just the, it's just the style of the event.
Max:The, the attendees could be.
Max:Directly out of our membership.
Max:Or it could be a more curated hospitality leadership dinner, for instance.
Max:But we think the spectacle of it is what's really interesting, unique, doesn't feel
Max:like you're at a, you know, you know, kind of, business kind of networking dinner.
Max:It's, it's actually quite a spectacle.
Max:And it did, you know, we went to a few over the summer.
Max:It's got this sort of.
Max:Underground wrap battle meets Top Chef five, where you're showing up in
Max:a place, you know, that you, again, wouldn't expect to get this amazing meal.
Max:And you're quite literally in the kitchen with these, these top
Max:CDCs and they're preparing a meal.
Max:It's, it's coursed out, there's voting, there's a winner, and you
Max:know, you, you learn who they are over the course of the evening.
Max:and just seeing, I think what stuck with me was just how competitive they
Max:are and just seeing how competitive they, these, These top chefs
Brian:Yeah, I couldn't do this with programmatic advertising, that's for sure.
Brian:That'd be difficult to pull off.
Brian:one of the things that you are bringing over is, you know, I think a flavor of
Brian:this talent, basically strategy, right?
Brian:Like, and tell me is like, is it exact to how, you know, you talked about
Brian:the difference between athletic and puck, but is this, this seems like this
Brian:is an integral part of the strategy.
Brian:How is it different than, than say how, like, you know, you guys were
Brian:approaching it at Puck, for example.
Max:It's, yeah, I mean the, the, deal structure is similar.
Max:You know, there's, there's, there's base, there's a bonus off direct
Max:subscription driven for caper.
Max:We're adding, you know, a company, you know, bonus based off company goals as
Max:well that our team will participate in.
Max:There's equity in the business.
Max:We think that's incredibly important, for the team, especially them, you
Max:know, everyone taking, taking a risk at the same, at the same stage as us.
Max:and then we also are including, IP participation.
Max:Making that sort of a day one component of everyone's deal so that, you know,
Max:regardless of, of what they're writing and how it goes on and gets developed,
Max:their, their level of participation.
Max:They'll, they'll have some level of participation no matter what.
Max:And that could, you know, you know, increase based on, their
Max:involvement in it going forward.
Max:So.
Max:All of these, you know, we want, we want as much of this participation as possible.
Max:It's really, it's really an important component here.
Max:and that, that model started at the athletic, you know, and then
Max:we, we poured it over to Puck.
Max:And now I think taking it one step further with, with caper.
Brian:And how about the, what's the advertiser base like?
Brian:Do you expect this to be like endemics or is it, is it going
Brian:to be a, a broader category?
Max:I mean, certainly some endemics, the, the point of sale, you know,
Max:platforms, square toast, all those for, for restaurants, I think is a
Max:really interesting category for us.
Max:it's, it's credit cards, you know, and speaking to their, their loyalty programs.
Max:it's endemic on the hospitality and travel space.
Max:I think that that lends, well maybe there's sort of some of the DMO market.
Max:world that, that makes sense here
Brian:Wait, what's the, what's DMO.
Max:that's the destination marketing organizations.
Max:So like, you know, visit San Diego, stuff like that.
Max:spirits certainly, you know, is, is another area that, we want
Max:to really, really hone in on.
Max:So, yeah, some endemics, but then I think it broaden ends out, you know,
Max:our first, our first partner is Luve.
Max:We think there's a luxury skew here, as well in, in terms of the, the
Max:class that we're speaking to and the audience that we're speaking to.
Max:So, we think there's Elaine there as well.
Brian:That's interesting.
Brian:The first partner is Luve.
Brian:How's that?
Brian:Like, explain the tie there.
Brian:'cause I wouldn't, I wouldn't have ex, I would've expected like a resi or someone.
Max:Res, I mean, well, yeah.
Max:That's, that's a, that's one that we, we certainly want to
Brian:Yeah, I know.
Max:well, lube, we, you know, we, we had, we had some relationships and, and,
Max:got to know them and they, they just, you know, I think they, they appreciated
Max:the vision and, You know, understand the, again, the class that we're speaking to,
Max:and I think they wanted to, ultimately be, be first up for this as well.
Max:And, we were able to, to create an attractive package
Max:that, that put them on it.
Brian:Yeah.
Brian:So how do you do, how do you grow in 2026?
Brian:I mean, do you expect.
Brian:Starting now to be the, the playbook is, is very different than, than what you
Brian:ran at, like the athletic and at puck.
Max:I don't think it's gonna be, you know, they dial up your meta
Max:ads and, and search ads as much.
Max:it's a lot.
Max:I think it's gonna be a lot more partnership oriented, event oriented.
Max:I mean, we think that there are.
Max:Different, this, this world is, is, it's connected in so many interesting ways,
Max:and it's such a relationships business that I think it's really navigating
Max:that correctly with, with partnerships.
Max:And maybe that's through events or maybe that's in, in some other ways, but I,
Max:I think that will be a big part of it.
Max:You know, our contributor base I think will extend in some interesting
Max:ways to help with distribution.
Max:Certainly, like we're bringing invoices, you know, from all over the place.
Max:I, I actually think that, that that's how we can again, differentiate.
Max:I think that's how we can have an audience strategy by, you know,
Max:being a bit unexpected with some of the bylines that you'll see.
Max:and that those will be people that are flanking Annie and,
Max:and Emma and, and Chris.
Max:So, Yeah, I think, I think it is a little bit different.
Max:The cre, the creator side of this and creator partnerships,
Max:will factor in somehow.
Max:I think, we've got a great partner, investor, partner in, in wheelhouse,
Max:and I think they're helping us think about some of that stuff, for instance.
Max:And, and then under understanding how to really work well with
Max:these hospitality groups,
Brian:Mm-hmm.
Brian:and also you, you raised money.
Brian:I think you raised about two and a half million.
Brian:talk to me about that, about that decision.
Brian:It's, it's almost like the reverse now, where it's like,
Brian:you know, it's cold to bootstrap.
Brian:you know, it's not like the, the big rounds of the past, right?
Brian:I mean, it's, it's two and a half million that goes, that goes
Brian:pretty quickly, particularly if you're based in New York City.
Brian:It's like, it's like a one bedroom.
Max:We, we, it gives us pretty good runway.
Max:We're, we're pretty lean and mean.
Max:yeah, it was, I mean, the fundraise itself was, was pretty efficient.
Max:I think this concept in this category really, really
Max:resonated with an investor class.
Max:I mean, and, and I think there was, you know, definitely interest in the space
Max:from, human ventures and, and Joe and Heather over there, who, who, who led
Max:it, and then some of our other investors.
Max:So I think that just resonated quite well.
Max:It, And then I, you know, again, I, I sort of have been fortunate to, to work with a
Max:lot of investors in media over the years.
Max:So, you know, called up, a a a lot of people that I've had, overlap with at
Max:the Athletic and, and some other places.
Max:And so that, that is really how it came together.
Max:The decis, the decision
Brian:But it's not like you're getting on the VC train like that.
Brian:This leads to the A, to the B, to the C, like, you know, like that.
Max:No, I think, I think we, you know, this can get to profitability
Max:like quite quickly and, again, just, just stay staying disciplined.
Max:But, but it's not, and then it doesn't require the same level of
Max:capital, particularly on the product and engineering side of things.
Max:You know, that it once, once had, we, we partnered, with beehive.
Max:To do this, you know, know, know the team over there.
Max:Well, and they've been incredibly supportive.
Max:and, and in terms of building this and lending resources and sort of
Max:supporting how we do it, and it's, and it's a fraction of, you know,
Max:what it would've cost to build, you know, five, six years ago.
Max:So I think that's, that's
Brian:Yeah.
Brian:Well, I mean, puck, you guys like started your own, I mean, you built, you built
Brian:more, it seems like, just like looking at the, like you, you built more custom stuff
Brian:like with Puck than, I mean, I know the
Brian:athletic did,
Max:it was, yes.
Max:Yes.
Max:And I mean, they were both, they were both, they were both, you know,
Max:WordPress sites in the end, but with a lot of custom, you know, on top of that.
Max:So, again, there's, there weren't the same out of the box tools that exist now.
Max:And again, it's just not as capital intensive as it once did.
Max:And, and, you know, will we, yeah.
Max:You know, hard to say if we, you know, if we'll need to, to, to, to
Max:raise more or not, but I, I know that we've got what we need to give us a,
Max:a real shot here and to make sure we, we hone in on the audience and, and
Max:develop the stories we want to tell.
Brian:Mm-hmm.
Brian:And I assume like you'll, this should attract like an affluent audience because
Brian:I mean, look every in media, like you, you pretty much to have a shot these days,
Brian:you really should be going after like an affluent audience, either a business
Brian:audience or just, or just rich people.
Brian:Like, is that, is that fair?
Max:absolutely.
Max:I mean, you know, people that are going out to eat and have that
Max:disposable income, I think is certainly an attractive category for us.
Max:We, you know, This executive class in hospitality?
Max:certainly.
Max:and I think people that that want to, you know, support, support this, this space
Max:are just enthusiastic about this space.
Max:you know, represent that, that that wealth class.
Brian:Okay, cool.
Brian:Well, max, I am looking forward to charting its evolution.
Brian:And as I said, like I'm excited that like, you know, people, people
Brian:are still starting media companies.
Brian:That's good.
Max:Thanks, Brian.
Brian:It's a positive.
Max:I mean, you know, this is, this is a fun place to be.
Max:We're lucky we get to do it,
Brian:all the tourists are gone now.
Brian:It's only the hardcore media people left, so that's great.
Max:it's true.
Max:Is that it?
Max:Yeah, that's, that's it.
Brian:Awesome.
Brian:Thank you Max.
Max:All right, man.
Max:Thanks.
