Episode 160

The Ankler's Janice Min embraces more with less

Janice Min joins to talk about building The Ankler into a focused, profitable media brand—and why she believes the future belongs to lean operators, not her past life helming glossy franchises. We talk about her transition from the high-gloss days of The Hollywood Reporter to the scrappy Substack era, the limits of venture capital in media, and how The Ankler is growing through high-impact events and B2B subscriptions. Janice shares lessons from Y Combinator, explains why editorial quality still matters, and reflects on the changing power dynamics in Hollywood.

Transcript
Brian:

Welcome to The Rebooting Show.

Brian:

I am Brian Morrisey.

Brian:

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Brian:

thank you so much to Marigold.

Brian:

I can attest to Sailthru because, we used to use Sailthru, I remember getting it when I was at Digiday, so I've used the tool, check it out, really good at personalization.

Brian:

So this week I have a, conversation with Janice Min, who is the CEO of The Ankler.

Brian:

Janice and I had never, talked before, but I I knew her.

Brian:

Quite well, from the industry.

Brian:

And that's because, you know, before the media industry was talking about Substack solopreneurs and doing more with less, Janice was operating kind of on the other end of the spectrum.

Brian:

She was running glossy publications with a high quality that usually came with high costs at us weekly in the two thousands or the Aughts as apparently we still have to call them.

Brian:

She turned a celebrity magazine into a cultural juggernaut, that, really flew off the newsstands.

Brian:

And then in the 2010-s, she improbably led the reinvention of the Hollywood Reporter, which at the time was owned by a private equity firm.

Brian:

And I knew it up close since it also owned, Adweek, where I was working at the time.

Brian:

And, and Janice, did a remarkable turnaround there, and she turned what was.

Brian:

A pretty dowdy trade publication, into a player, in, on, in both digital scale.

Brian:

it hit 23 million, monthly uniques.

Brian:

but also, by bringing it to a weekly print issue with, you know, better quality, better photography and the rest of it.

Brian:

And, and really kind of, to me at the time, it.

Brian:

It, just looking at it, from being at Adweek where we were trying to reinvent it, you know, it was kind of the, the model, you know,

Brian:

internally at the company because it was able to straddle both being used for professionals in the industry and, and the Hollywood.

Brian:

In Hollywood business, but also taking advantage of, you know, the cultural impact and heat that comes off that kind of industry.

Brian:

And that was actually something Janice and I talk about.

Brian:

That was something that, you know, Adweek wanted to do.

Brian:

They brought in, Michael Wolf at, at the time to really, to me, like to pull off, you know, something very similar to what Janice was doing at the h Hollywood Reporter.

Brian:

Didn't, didn't have, quite the same results.

Brian:

But anyway, now she's operating from a very different playbook.

Brian:

She's the CEO of the Ankler, as I said.

Brian:

And that is a Substack.

Brian:

Turned into modern competitor to THR and other Hollywood trades.

Brian:

She's building a lean focused business.

Brian:

It has 14 employees, that's up from three at launch.

Brian:

but it does not have the sprawling infrastructure that would define magazines of the aughts, right?

Brian:

I mean, the Ankler still operates on Substack, for instance.

Brian:

and the one thing it is though it is profitable.

Brian:

It's, subscription supported.

Brian:

It has an ads business.

Brian:

It, it is of course going into events hard as, as most publications seem to be these days.

Brian:

It is, the, the events are the fastest growing part of its business.

Brian:

interestingly it went through Y Combinator, but just went in a totally different direction than the typical sort of.

Brian:

AI startup playbook, that tries to blitz scale.

Brian:

and I think that's indicative of just the media market now.

Brian:

and it was interesting to me that someone like Janice is, is doing this now and is really embracing this more with less ethos that you'll see.

Brian:

We talk about a lot in this conversation.

Brian:

you know, the old playbooks don't really work these days in media.

Brian:

I mean, there's people that want to.

Brian:

Run them again.

Brian:

I mean, I think we've already sort of memory hold the messenger, but that was, you know, basically trying to run an old playbook in, in a different time and it just doesn't work.

Brian:

so we talk about this new playbook, this more with less playbook, if you will, and how the Aner is executing on it and as well as their, their feud with, with, with Jay Penske.

Brian:

It's always good to have a feud, particularly Hollywood trades like have a long history of these kind of feuds, so I'm glad that there's some.

Brian:

That we're, we're having some carryover from previous eras into now, and lots more.

Brian:

So hope you enjoy this conversation.

Brian:

always wanna hear your feedback.

Brian:

My email is bmorrissey@therebooting.com.

Brian:

Janice, thank you so much for doing this.

Brian:

We've never spoken before, but I've, I've been following your career avidly so excited.

Janice:

you.

Janice:

I'm, it's shocking to me we've never met 'cause we know so many people in common.

Brian:

Exactly.

Brian:

We just had a long, a long half hour about Michael Wolf.

Brian:

we we're both, we're both big fans of Michael, so,

Janice:

We big fans of Michael.

Brian:

I don't know if Michael listens this podcast though.

Janice:

Well, well, I'd safe to say Michael doesn't, doesn't, I think he likes both of us, which is a huge accomplishment.

Brian:

There, you know, that's what I took, took away from my experience.

Brian:

did like working for Michael.

Brian:

so I want to, I wanna talk about, you know, The Ankler.

Brian:

'cause I think it's like a fascinating, but I want to talk, you know, first about sort of your theory of the case, with, you know, the anr and that goes back to your experience, obviously US Weekly, sort of legendary run there in the two th what is it?

Brian:

What do we call them?

Brian:

The S.

Janice:

The S that hasn't really caught on are people say, or do people say

Brian:

don't know.

Brian:

I think we just forget, forget that it existed.

Brian:

we'll call it the aughts for now, but you had a legendary run with, with us Weekly.

Brian:

And then, I mean, our past never crossed, but for a while I was at Adweek.

Brian:

I guess we worked for the same company for a little

Janice:

Oh my God.

Brian:

I was at Adweek, I think I left in T 2011.

Brian:

But you, you rev I would say you've revived the Hollywood reporter there and it was like a really interesting playbook that you, that you ran there.

Brian:

and I wanna talk about that 'cause those were, you know, those were two different like time and now we, for fast forward now to the Ankler.

Brian:

first of all, what did you take away from, from those like experience?

Brian:

'cause Hollywood media is its own sort of ecosystem.

Janice:

Yeah, I mean, God, what did I take away from US Weekly?

Janice:

that, that was an incredible error where you could make an extraordinary amount of money selling publications on a newsstand.

Janice:

I mean, how old timey does that sound?

Janice:

Right?

Janice:

and that you could actually create this appointment, Appointment reading Where if, and if people who were reading it at the time, you know, it was one of the biggest publications in America Wednesday morning, it would come out in New York

Janice:

City and people would sort of rapidly consume it, and then it could set this whole agenda for, entertainment coverage, particularly around celebrities for like, the rest of news media.

Janice:

It was like, you know, it was definitely, in a charmed spot, during the, during that decade.

Janice:

and so I think with, with Hollywood Reporter, that was probably, that was probably the, those were the first sort of.

Janice:

Signs of how media would be, you know, would be fragmented, that you could start to see how specialized media could gain scale and gain audience and become, you know, huge.

Janice:

And obviously, I, going back to US weekly a second, you know, I worked for Jan Wener at the time, and he was very much, you know, he did not really want a website.

Janice:

We had a sort of sad website and it was, it was always like, it, it was just promotion for the magazine.

Janice:

and you don't wanna give away your stories.

Janice:

I mean, I understand it, like you're trying to protect something that makes you so much more money than a free click.

Janice:

and so Hollywood Reporter was really about dragging that into the digital age.

Janice:

And remember this is the, in the 2000 tens now I joined in 2010 and we, are trying to play a scale game.

Janice:

So they didn't have a real website.

Janice:

We started a website in addition to having

Brian:

Wait, it was like a print, it was like a print newspaper that was

Janice:

Oh my God.

Janice:

The saddest, the saddest trade Daily, like Hideous

Brian:

you were named there, it was very eye-opening.

Brian:

Right, because like, look, I worked in, like in trade media, no disrespect.

Brian:

It's getting like B2B is getting like it's due

Janice:

is having its moment

Brian:

but let's be real, like it was a backwater

Janice:

Dowdy, like, I mean, and, and just not, and like even in the sort of lowly world of Hollywood trade media was like.

Janice:

Lowest done, you know, in the pecking order.

Janice:

And that's saying a lot.

Janice:

this is, you know, trade media has never been like a place of journalistic distinction.

Janice:

but well, going back to how you and I worked in the same company, is that, private money, this is going to become a familiar story.

Janice:

Prior to everyone who works in media private money decided that they really liked these brands.

Janice:

And in that, in this case, it was, it started out with Todd Boley from Guggenheim Partners.

Janice:

and, there was a CEO, Richard Beckman, who probably your listeners remember, mostly from Conde Nast, mad Dog, Beckman.

Janice:

And,

Brian:

his office was very near my cubicle.

Brian:

So,

Brian:

but, but at the same time, very far away, if you know what I mean.

Janice:

I, yeah, I got it.

Janice:

and so, so they hired me to, along with another character owner, Jimmy Finkelstein, who most recently we last heard, from with the Messenger.

Janice:

so we, anyway, they hired me to do this remake of the Hollywood Reporter.

Janice:

They had bought these titles from Nielsen, these sort of sleepy ailing assets out of Nielsen, including Billboard, Adweek, Hollywood Reporter, the

Brian:

Let's not forget Brand Week, media

Brian:

Week,

Janice:

We, well, let's never forget those.

Janice:

Yep.

Janice:

And you

Brian:

HR publications, I

Brian:

think, but maybe not.

Janice:

And so they, they, they bought them at the time for $70 million.

Janice:

all these, and then the idea was to reinvent them and make them big.

Janice:

And anyway, it was appealing to me because it was, you could see like this media struggles really starting to take shape.

Janice:

And they were basically handed me like money and freedom to remake something, which I, and I, I remember thinking at the time like, I'm never gonna get this again.

Janice:

This is gonna be the last, last gasp of some, you know, someone in publishing offering something like that to me.

Janice:

And so it ended up becoming, you know, transformed into this sort of, you know, narcotic, glossy publication that came out every week, that like really took the industry, you know.

Janice:

It hit from the first issue and then a website that like, you know, I think of, you know, grew to 23 million unique visitors a month on comScore.

Janice:

so it was about really leveraging our access in Hollywood, to tell stories that would be appealing to a much wider audience and, you know, brought in luxury advertisers, automotive airlines, in addition to the endemic trade advertising.

Janice:

And, yeah, ended up becoming a huge, huge success.

Brian:

And that's why I'm saying this is a totally different era, right?

Brian:

Because I mean, this was the era of like, you know, in quote scale, et cetera.

Brian:

And you could, you could make big audiences.

Brian:

And this was also a time, and I think we're seeing kind of a new version of this when I wanna talk about where you could straddle the, the look.

Brian:

B2B has always been a, a better, has been a good business.

Brian:

You know, at the end of the day, a lot of, you know, a lot of consumer media have, have been big brands, small businesses.

Brian:

B2B makes money.

Brian:

It's always made money.

Brian:

It might be, it might be a little bit of a backwater historically, but the economics are, are far better.

Brian:

in many cases, that was a different era at the time.

Brian:

And so you had a different playbook, right?

Brian:

And you went on to do other things with like Quibi and whatnot.

Brian:

But like Ankler, with the, we, we can do, we can do Quibi, but we don't have to do Quibi, but like, With the Ankler, what is the playbook?

Brian:

Because this is a totally, you've mentioned a few times, this is a totally decentralized media environment.

Brian:

the Ankler began, you know, Richard Feld, as a substack still on Substack, which I wanna talk about.

Brian:

and it's different.

Brian:

I mean, the, the Hollywood trade world, you know, is now, you know, it's, I don't know, is it a monopoly?

Brian:

I don't know what it's

Janice:

It's a monopoly.

Janice:

Yeah.

Brian:

you know, Jay Penske owns, you know what he owns Hollywood Reporter.

Brian:

He owns Variety.

Brian:

He owns Deadline.

Janice:

Indie Wire or like na name, some sort of, you know, you and you, you're getting much more obscure after that too.

Janice:

Like gold derby, like TV line, like just kind of a lot of, sort of in some ways invented brands that all got aggregated under, but the, you know, the big three being the trades Hollywood reporter variety and and deadline.

Janice:

And so, you know, so just some context around the Ankler when Jay Penske bought the Hollywood Reporter and then would become the owner of all these titles.

Janice:

Like you, you know, I think we've seen the Jay Penske playbook before.

Janice:

He doesn't make anything better, right?

Janice:

He editorially he doesn't make anything better.

Janice:

and

Brian:

Well, he makes money.

Brian:

I mean, to, to defend

Janice:

He makes money.

Janice:

Money, yes.

Janice:

So that's, so, yeah.

Janice:

No, in his defense, he makes money.

Janice:

But, you know, editorial greatness does not seem to be the first objective.

Janice:

Right.

Janice:

And so, whereas I would say like I'm of the mindset editorial greatness is first, then the ad money follows as a result of that.

Janice:

And so, anyway, but you could see the, the groundwork being laid for, like a really homogenized voice with lots of separate interests, including award shows.

Janice:

You know, se he took it a big investment in so by Southwest, and kind of a sort of similarity.

Janice:

And anyone who subscribes to the emails from the trades, it's, it's, it's almost comical.

Janice:

No, it is comical.

Janice:

It's not almost comical.

Janice:

You get three versions of the same story coming to your inbox from Deadline Variety Hollywood Reporter.

Janice:

They're chasing scale.

Janice:

So you get like crazy stories about like, you know.

Janice:

Donald Trump is Israel.

Janice:

I mean, like, you're getting things that have nothing to do with the business of Hollywood and they're just chasing a Google, you know, a Google search or some kind of algorithm somewhere.

Janice:

So, it's definitely diluted the kind of like the what, what the actual trade aspect is of covering these, of covering an industry.

Janice:

So anyway, fast forward to Richard Rushfield, so his Richard Rushfield newsletter.

Janice:

Had gotten forwarded to me by a really prominent entertainment attorney in Hollywood saying, oh my God, have you read this?

Janice:

This is like the best thing I've ever read.

Janice:

And so, we, so then he and this entertainment attorney asked if I could introduce him to Richard, who of course I've known, 'cause we both work in live out here.

Janice:

And so Richard and I spoke, we, we all went out to lunch and Richard told me a lot more about the business that he had and who was subscribing.

Janice:

And it was pretty crazy who was on a subscription, on a subscription roll.

Janice:

It was like every top person in entertainment, every, you know, Oscar winners, Emmy winners, see the.

Janice:

You know, pretty much every CEO and, but Richard was sort of doing his one man show and, and it's, you know, not dissimilar to what we're seeing right now where there are a lot of one man, one-woman shows.

Janice:

And, and so I asked him, I said like, do you wanna try to do something more with this?

Janice:

'cause you could sort of see the trends of media like shifting.

Janice:

And this whole di basically it's like a direct to consumer experience of, of how you get your information, but also people who are saying things unfiltered.

Janice:

and like things that like more established media don't do.

Janice:

'cause typically you're writing in the voice of an outlet instead of your own voice.

Janice:

And so, you know, Richard was game, we raised some money.

Janice:

I'm, I'm.

Janice:

Doing a very short version of the story, raise some money.

Janice:

Y Combinator invited us to, become part of Y Combinator.

Janice:

And, so for people who, who are familiar with Y Combinator or not familiar with Y Combinator, you know, they'd give you an initial $500,000 investment.

Janice:

and

Brian:

But also this is, this is where like a lot of the, the massive technology companies of our day have have started, and Y Combinator, it's the most famous like tech incubator.

Brian:

Not exactly where I would think like a newsletter business would come out of, but there have been a couple.

Janice:

okay.

Janice:

So, okay.

Janice:

So yes, you're right.

Janice:

A Airbnb, Instacart, I mean, I, I, there are 10,000 of these things that have started out of, Out of Y Combinator, but there was one

Janice:

traditional, oh, Reddit, I believe Reddit started out of Y Combinator, but there was one traditional media player, the Athletic that had preceded us.

Janice:

And, and so I, I think part of why they recruited us was they saw the ability to replicate the Athletic, which as people know, had a pretty good outcome selling to the New York Times.

Janice:

And and so I think there, they believed in this idea of, you know, how do you growing a business around a passionate community basically.

Janice:

And you know, and here we are today.

Brian:

So what was the, I just want to like dwell on this for a little bit 'cause I've been intrigued, but I've, I've had, ser like who went through Y Combinator with the, the Juggernaut.

Brian:

That's another I media company that went through it.

Brian:

but like, you know, you were like, your background's totally different from the people who your, were your classmates.

Brian:

I don't know what you call them in your cohort.

Janice:

Yeah, I mean it was really, like, for me, it was sort of a, a kind of a crash course in the new economy, I guess.

Janice:

And, I. you know, and I think, so this was in 2022 when we were in Y Combinator.

Janice:

And at that time everything was, you know, so you can see what the trends of Silicon Valley are.

Janice:

The, the other, the the big hot companies or the hot company, they were there.

Janice:

It was, I. the companies that were disproportionately represented in my cohort were ai, or sorry, blockchain, crypto NFTs.

Janice:

Like, you know, that that era and today it's very much ai.

Janice:

Like there are, you know, if you are, if you're an AI company, you know, you've stand a much better chance of, being accepted to Y Combinator then say a newsletter publisher.

Janice:

So, so yeah, so we were, we were sort of like odd man out, but what I liked about it was that it sort of like revealed a real discipline about how you like, raise money, how you grow the company.

Janice:

And and I think one of the fallacies of fundraising, which I think is media, media that covers media, doesn't help with is I think, you know, people in media get really starry-eyed about like, oh my god, so and so raised.

Janice:

You know, X amount of money and like, I'm gonna, you know, you can think of the names of the last decade, like Vice Buzzfeed, you know, that they, that they took on so much money and it was

Janice:

sort of like affirmation of your value instead, not really realizing it mean, it meant you lost control of your company and your destiny and that,

Brian:

Well, it's like, congrats on the massive mortgage you just took out to like

Janice:

yeah.

Brian:

house.

Brian:

Like I hope you make the.

Janice:

Exactly ex. totally.

Janice:

And so, you know, one of the best conversations we had when we were thinking about how much money to Raise was with, mark Andreessen, you know, who just said like, you know, bootstrap

Janice:

your company and you will, you will raise money or, you know, have, have the business run the business entirely on your terms moving forward.

Janice:

And so it was a little scary.

Janice:

You know, I've, I've been like a pretty, you know, like a fancy editor during fancy times and it was like, oh my God, that's such a small amount of money.

Janice:

You know, like, what could, how do you possibly do a business with that?

Janice:

And then I think, and you're discovering this too, I think the, the amount you can accomplish with little money is.

Janice:

It's kind of wild.

Janice:

and I think you're, you're seeing legacy media now realizing like, oh, we gotta do this with a, a lot less money.

Janice:

And so, yeah.

Janice:

It's,

Brian:

Yeah.

Brian:

I, I was told, I, I, I had this anecdote told to me recently of, of someone who.

Brian:

Oh, I'll try to, I, so basically someone who came from, like, not from the glossy magazine world, who landed in one of those shrunken jobs at,

Brian:

at a, um, at a, at a glossy magazine.

Brian:

And this person ended up saying, what are these, what do all the people do?

Janice:

Oh my

Brian:

because even with all the cutbacks that there is still a lot of layers in a lot of these companies, and this is a different era.

Brian:

And that must be an adjustment for you, right?

Brian:

Like, I mean, you were doing, I remember when I was at Adweek at the, like, at the end, like the stuff that you were doing, like on the cover we were getting like, you know, we were forwarding like a headshot to like our art department.

Brian:

There was not, there was a different budget going on at Hollywood Reporter for the, for the photo,

Janice:

Oh, oh my God.

Janice:

No.

Janice:

I mean, it was, it was like, it was, you know, the last gasp of great legacy media, right?

Janice:

It was like glamorous and lush and all those things, and that's what we were selling.

Janice:

Right?

Brian:

We were failing the tie test.

Brian:

Do I ever hear the tie test that the magazine has to be thicker than, it has to be thicker than like the a tie to be taken seriously?

Brian:

During the financial crisis, we failed it every single week.

Janice:

Oh my God.

Janice:

Oh my God, that's so funny.

Janice:

wow.

Janice:

No, I would say there were times, there were times the Hollywood reporter print issue was thicker than probably like pen ties, right?

Janice:

So, yeah.

Janice:

but, yeah.

Janice:

So you realize how like, well, okay to, but to answer your question, I felt like I was probably well equipped for this because I think, you know, anyone who has worked with me before knows I'm like, I, like I am pathologically hands-on.

Janice:

So, so I, this wasn't unusual for me to, you know, be extremely involved in things like down to captions and, you know, photo selection, like every last thing.

Janice:

So that sort of controlling side of being an editor of that kind was like served me well in getting the ankle off the ground.

Brian:

So I th to me it's like the Anklers, you know, as Richard's like Substack was successful, it gets, you need to get like a measure of success.

Brian:

It found, I guess what they would call it Y Combinator product market fit.

Brian:

Right?

Brian:

I'm sure you saw that with the people who were getting it.

Brian:

And then you said, oh, there's something here, right?

Janice:

yes.

Janice:

yes.

Brian:

and then there's a question which direction you go.

Brian:

Right?

Brian:

Because like we see with Substack, a lot of people.

Brian:

And I don't know if the answer is right or wrong.

Brian:

This might be a little bit of a therapy session.

Brian:

They ended up staying, staying like on the solo path because like there is less risk there and there is sometimes there's so much leverage if you do it right in that sort of individual part, right?

Brian:

Because authenticity is.

Brian:

In my view, kind of like overvalued in the market and personal connection, but at least at this point, like the value is the value and that

Brian:

provides tremendous leverage, whether that's in sales, whether that's in getting the audience to be engaged and to take an action, et cetera.

Brian:

It's just easier if you're an individual these days than if you are an a faceless brand.

Brian:

Right.

Brian:

But I was like writing a newsletter, after I had Norovirus and like, it had an IV in my arm, like the, the afternoon before, and I was like, you know, it would be really good to have a team.

Janice:

Yeah.

Brian:

So I think the question ends up being for a lot of, you know, people who reach that kind of product, market fit in like a substack environment.

Brian:

What you, what do you want to be like?

Brian:

Do you wanna be, do you wanna be Ben Thompson?

Brian:

Do you want to be like Lenny, you know, or do you want to be the free press?

Brian:

Do you want to be The Ankler?

Janice:

I, I, for us, we wanna be The Ankler.

Janice:

Like

Janice:

it's,

Janice:

um, I mean it's, it's, you know, because Richard, so the, the idea was to replicate many Richards, right?

Janice:

And to, create a bench of people who are hitting different parts of the industry.

Janice:

And I, I think if you, if you are a fan of Richard Rushfield, you know, you know sort of the topics he likes to write about, you know, his point of view.

Janice:

And it was more about reflecting sort of the greater breadth of what entertainment is, what it represents, and all these sort of like things we knew we could go deep on that would.

Janice:

People would subscribe to.

Janice:

I think the other thing with Richard is, that he had such a, he has such a. High level group of people reading him and like, yet as y you know, as people who wanna reach that audience.

Janice:

Now that's, that's a finite group of people, particularly as entertainment, as Hollywood proper was shrinking.

Janice:

And so how could we, create voices?

Janice:

that encompass like a larger group of people in entertainment.

Janice:

whether that's involving like, writers, whether that's involving, you know, people who, are interested in ai, people who are interested in the creator economy.

Janice:

people who are interested in the business of, intellectual property and optioning it.

Janice:

So it, we really wanted to, you know, start to like, I would say, scratch.

Janice:

The itch of things people wanted more information on.

Janice:

I'm gonna like also say that, you know, we entered a phase of entertainment, which, you know, you Hollywood, when, when I say entertainment, I really mean Hollywood when I'm talking about this.

Janice:

So just like a few, you know, maybe a co you know, a few dozen gatekeepers who are really deciding everything that's getting onto your screen.

Janice:

And it was like about individual taste and you had to suck up to this person and you wanted to be seen at the polo lounge with them to really one where data and, data and outcomes were becoming more important.

Janice:

Particularly as con you know, m and a was starting to take over Hollywood and quarterly earnings, like performance was becoming like a, you know, performance, like mattered.

Janice:

And that was not necessarily the first, the first metric of why a project was getting made in the entertainment business.

Janice:

So, that, that kind of access to information and data and performance like was.

Janice:

Taking over an industry that had once just been, been about a hand, the taste of a handful of people.

Janice:

And we have leaned into that, like leaned into telling people about how decisions are getting made, what decisions are getting made and why.

Janice:

And like, kind of like this, I mean it's really the core essence of like trade journal or be business journalism is like, how are you helping people fundamentally do their jobs?

Janice:

And that's kind of, that's kind of, you know, the crux of what we're, of what we do.

Brian:

Do you consider the Ankler or B2B or B two P?

Janice:

What's P

Brian:

The professional?

Brian:

I've

Brian:

noticed that this is like, so like Puck John, John Kelly, puck U uses, but then again, he calls a place that's in the financial district, south Tribeca.

Brian:

But like he, he, he says that what they do is, is B two P. I've heard this a lot and I, I sort of understand it in some ways in that B2B I

Brian:

think still has a connotation that is different than regular business news that is, is made for a professional, if you know what I mean.

Brian:

Like, there's,

Brian:

there's some kind of, you know it when you see it, I feel

Janice:

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Janice:

well, I guess I've never contemplated that, but I, but I would say the people, the people who we, I mean, I, we have great visibility to who our audience is, which is the beauty

Janice:

of newsletters, is that, I mean, we know that the people who are consuming us and paying for us are people who work in the industry.

Janice:

So, yes.

Janice:

And that way they are professionals.

Janice:

and there are lots of people who, the beauty of Hollywood and entertainment is, there are also so many, complimentary industries that are reliant on entertainment.

Janice:

And, so you see, you know, we have people from obviously media, from advertising fashion.

Janice:

You know, credit card companies, like they're, you know, you, they're lots of people dependent on us.

Janice:

So I don't know.

Janice:

I, I would say, I would say we are B two.

Janice:

B plus a p then if we're, if we're, if we need to speak in letters,

Brian:

We don't have to.

Brian:

We don't have to.

Janice:

and I would, I'm sorry.

Janice:

I would say that occasionally we're B2C.

Janice:

'cause we do, we do, we do do things, get that, get a consumer audience.

Janice:

Like when we interview talent, like, you know, stars of White Lotus, you know, we recently did a piece where we interviewed the, this, the

Janice:

composer who does that cool music in White Lotus, who has gotten into this huge spat, public spat with Mike White, the creator of White Lotus.

Janice:

Like, that's the kind of piece that can, like, that will totally take off for us.

Brian:

well these kind of industries, whether it's it's it's media or, or Hollywood, like they're, they have such heat off of them

Brian:

consumer, and I think that is what you got right at, at, at Hollywood Reporter is you kind of don't have to stick in in, in the B2B lane.

Brian:

Like, I mean that, like, I think you don't because it, it has, and a lot of this, you know, and I, I saw, I think Michael was trying to do this with, with AD Weekly as that was the idea is like, you see Politico, right?

Brian:

And Politico has a really hardcore B2B model underneath it.

Brian:

but Politico is a consumer brand because like everyone, you know, they made politics like sports at the end

Janice:

Yes.

Janice:

Entertainment.

Janice:

I mean, which is a really weird way to.

Janice:

Think about it, but yeah, politics kind of became entertainment also.

Janice:

but yeah, like, listen, we're not, we're, you know, I, I couldn't do this with, you know, if we had HVAC weekly, like, you know, the, the publication for the heating, ventilation and air conditioning industry.

Brian:

Hey, industry dive sold for like 600 million,

Janice:

I know I, well, I know, like that's, I know, I'm like, maybe we should do HVAC weekly.

Janice:

but, yeah, I, listen, I think the, the, the entertainment in Hollywood, no matter how many times the business press, press will tell you it's distressed, it, it still, you know, it's still is, it holds a lot of interest.

Janice:

And I would, I guess I would say sex appeal to a, you know, a very large group of people in the world, inc. Including our, you know, our tech overlords in Bezos.

Janice:

And, you know, who, who could, you know, never met a red carpet in Hollywood.

Janice:

They didn't like.

Brian:

Right.

Brian:

But, Hollywood is in, in, I mean, like all of media is, I, I feel like distressed at some point.

Brian:

I feel everyone who says like, you're a doubt.

Brian:

I'm like, I don't know.

Brian:

Like, I mean, it's just like literally, obviously the industry is being compressed and all parts of it are being compressed.

Brian:

That's just the reality of it.

Brian:

I can't like,

Janice:

Well, I guess if you're not in a, if your industry's not in distress, you're not in a good industry.

Janice:

You're not in an industry.

Janice:

I,

Janice:

I,

Brian:

Yeah.

Brian:

People don't care.

Brian:

Uh, you know, and, and a lot of it is just being downstream of the technology overlords that you mentioned, and that's the reality.

Brian:

If you own the interface layer.

Brian:

You know, you, you kind of control everything.

Brian:

And that is just the way it, it is.

Brian:

You can't put the genie back in the bottle, et cetera.

Brian:

and so you just have to go on with it.

Brian:

but then, you know, Hollywood had the strike that didn't really help things.

Brian:

I mean, so it's interesting 'cause you're, you're, you're barging into a category that is in some kind of distress, right?

Janice:

I, I'm sure you've found this with what you do, like industries in distress.

Janice:

okay, two things.

Janice:

I don't think distress is forever.

Janice:

I think it, it gets remade and there will be insurgents and incumbents who come on and who will change it all.

Janice:

We don't even know who they are at the moment.

Janice:

Right.

Janice:

And through Hollywood's worst periods of time when like, there was just schlock and distress and dismay.

Janice:

Like, like never forget, like Coca-Cola once owned a Hollywood studio, right?

Janice:

And, Matsuhiso, like p like what?

Janice:

Like why are you buying that?

Janice:

And they're like, oh my God.

Janice:

It's the end of, it's the end of an industry.

Janice:

And out of those sort of most fallow, worst, you know, the horrible periods where the sky was falling came some of the greatest art.

Janice:

Right?

Janice:

So the 1970s, for example, followed the 1960s, which was just like people thought, like, you know, TV was ruining film.

Janice:

It was like, you know.

Janice:

Crappy shows that were imitating other shows.

Janice:

and, and, you know, and that the 1990s for independent film, you know, out of Sundance, pulp Fiction, probably the greatest decade of so many people would

Janice:

argue the greatest decade of filmmaking followed the eighties, which was definitely schlock V in M and a V. Um, so, so, okay.

Janice:

So I'm optimistic about entertainment.

Janice:

I wanna say that.

Janice:

But the second part is that distressed distress also is where audiences need to have information.

Janice:

Like they need to know what is happening.

Janice:

Like they wanna have some tether on reality that is honest and, credible and will really tell you what is happening inside your own industry.

Janice:

'cause I think the, you know, the throw up your hands and like, we're doomed, like doesn't work.

Janice:

And I, one of the things I always say to the staff when we're, when we're constructing what we are putting out in the world is like.

Janice:

You know, people don't pay to hear people complain.

Janice:

Right?

Janice:

Like, so you could, you could do stories all day long about how awful it is to work here, but no one pays.

Janice:

Never in the history of time has someone paid someone and said, let me hear you complain about your life.

Janice:

So we try to be as constructive and instructive on how to work in the parameters that are now in front of people.

Brian:

Yeah, no, look, I, I think I look at distress.

Brian:

I mean, I know distressed industries and I see them.

Brian:

So like, you know, with media, there are times of tremendous change and there are also like a lot of, there's a lot of volatility.

Brian:

And in volatility there's opportunity and, you know, you can have opportunity.

Brian:

That's why I'm interested in the business model, that I want to get into is because, you know, how you build the Ankler is gonna be different and you, you, you end up having the incumbents.

Brian:

It always happens.

Brian:

They end up having disadvantages when it comes to their cost spaces, their cultures, just the way they do things.

Brian:

And we see it across all sectors of the economy.

Brian:

So it provides tremendous opportunities to new brands to enter, enter into the fray.

Brian:

So the ankle started with a subscriptions, right?

Brian:

I mean, it was all subscriptions.

Brian:

It's a substack is about subscriptions, right?

Brian:

But, you know, one of the, one of the few good ad categories left is FYC, which is four year consideration.

Brian:

which is a little cottage industry where not only do you not compete with the technology companies, increasingly they they are, they are not, they're the customers.

Brian:

the, the, the corollary to this is in Washington.

Brian:

All of those, regulate us, but only in a way that benefits us kind of, corporate responsibility ads, or I notice, I notice when they run, they use the Gulf of America thing.

Brian:

Like that's how, you

Brian:

know, it's,

Janice:

Oh, wow.

Janice:

Wow.

Janice:

But those, those ads always make me laugh.

Janice:

Like, Amazon changed my life for the better.

Janice:

I mean, like, you know, it's, it's,

Brian:

but those are the two categories I think, you know, that's why Puck went after them and they're good categories.

Brian:

So break down where the business is now.

Brian:

get as specific as, as you're willing to, I know you're gonna do percentage gains, which I always, you know,

Janice:

Uh, that'll, I'll be, I'll be more, I'll, I'll try to be more specific.

Janice:

Like, okay.

Janice:

So, so this, you were right.

Janice:

There's the FYC advertising is a big business in the entertainment space.

Janice:

And, you know, if I can go back to the Hollywood reporter for a second, just in, in showing the evolution of how the industry has changed.

Janice:

When I, was at the Hollywood Reporter, when I started the single biggest FYC advertiser at the Hollywood Reporter was Warner Brothers.

Janice:

By the time I left it, it had become Apple.

Janice:

so you can see the hierarchy shifting.

Janice:

but, as the streaming wars happened, getting awards became more important.

Janice:

'cause you're trying to market, you're trying to tell the world we have the best to the qual quality, all of that.

Janice:

And also talent requires it.

Janice:

Like, if you're trying to bring big names or if you're trying to bring Leonardo DiCaprio over to Apple that you need to make sure that you're running like a top flight awards campaign for Leonard Leonardo DiCaprio to win an Oscar.

Janice:

So I think you're, you know, this sort of like, You know, I think as with within this world of like internet sludge and too much

Janice:

information, like trying to find ways to elevate yourself out of that is probably one of the biggest achievements you can have right now.

Janice:

Whether you're like the Ankler or whether you're a star who's trying to, you know, not just be the, you know, 2000 tile on Netflix screen.

Janice:

so, so the FYC industry has continued to grow and, and we are taking more and more of it.

Janice:

and I think part of it is just this, you know, we're, we're so deliberate in telling people who our audience.

Janice:

our audience is, and people know we are not chasing scale.

Janice:

We are not trying to grab the last eyeball in Ohio, who, you know, wants to see some scandal about Justin Baldon and Blake Lively in the, in the 200th story from an outlet.

Janice:

So we, people know we are speaking to the industry.

Janice:

So this is where this whole inverse thing has happened in the last, you know, let's say eight years of like.

Janice:

You know, it's not about how big you can get, but in some ways it's the discipline of how small you can stay and how, how much you can continue to prove the case that you are reaching a specialized audience.

Janice:

And that you, these people that sponsors advertisers know you have that access and they want access to that group of people.

Janice:

And I think you're probably seeing this, from your business too, that, you know, people don't want 200 people events, they want 25 person events and they wanna be in the room with those, with these, you know, quote unquote Right.

Janice:

25 people.

Janice:

I think that whole era of like, we're just gonna yell a message out into the world and like, you know, spray and pray, hope it lands with someone, I, I think that's a harder and harder sell for people.

Janice:

And it's just, it's just not, it's not.

Janice:

Anyone who has spent a second on the internet today knows

Brian:

know.

Janice:

none of this is sticking with you.

Brian:

Yeah, but so gimme the revenue stack, right?

Brian:

So I mean, you've like, I think what's great is starting with subscriptions is it's, it's a stable business that, like you, the, the recurring part of it is very important.

Brian:

and, and that is, that's, that's a wonderful thing.

Brian:

and then you

Brian:

layer on top of the other stuff.

Janice:

so Brian, like, it's crazy when you think about, you know, from legacy publishing, like you get these offers still like 12 issues for a dollar.

Janice:

Like, I mean, like, you could charge a lot more for that.

Janice:

Right?

Janice:

And you don't, and so, so, so we, you know,

Brian:

that's the rate base.

Brian:

I mean, these things are, they're ad

Janice:

I know I, they're, yes, they're ad businesses, so, but what if they could be both?

Janice:

Right.

Janice:

So I, so anyway, you know, Richard, when, when I joined Richard, the day we, I, it was announced we, I joined Richard, we raised our price, we raised Richard's Price.

Janice:

He was $79 a year.

Janice:

We raised it to 149, a year.

Janice:

And like no one blinked.

Janice:

And, and then, you know, we recently did a price raise again to $169 a year.

Janice:

And just like, 'cause we are demonstrating like our worth to people and we'd like them to pay us for the work.

Janice:

And it, I think we're lucky in this industry also because this is an industry where people have gone on strike to get paid for what they produce, right?

Janice:

Like they, they want, they value the value of, you know, content as people call it storytelling, right?

Janice:

Reporting.

Janice:

So, okay.

Janice:

So we, we've developed a nice, nice space of subscription revenue.

Janice:

we've grown.

Janice:

I. I'm gonna give you a stat and I'm gonna blow it.

Janice:

'cause I, I'm, I always have to

Brian:

Here's an easy one.

Brian:

The number of a number of people paying you for a subscription.

Janice:

well, that I, I'm not gonna give you the exact number, but it's

Brian:

That's an easy one though.

Janice:

I know.

Janice:

It's okay.

Janice:

It's grown.

Janice:

It's grown, you know, five x how about that?

Janice:

So,

Brian:

that's, that's the percentage gain part I thought we

Janice:

I know, I know, I know.

Janice:

Well, you know, we'll, we, we will one day like reveal all of this, but like it's, there's, I feel like there's no benefit to us yet to do that,

Janice:

So

Brian:

So you got subscriptions.

Brian:

Will you tell me like what percentage of the overall revenue subscriptions are versus the other parts?

Janice:

So, let's see.

Janice:

we're about, at this point, about 40% subscription revenue and 60% coming from, advertising and sponsorship of events.

Janice:

And our fastest growing area is events.

Brian:

That's interesting.

Brian:

I mean, that's like, it's unex, it's expected, I feel like, because, you know, like you said, like getting.

Brian:

Being able to have entree to the right rooms is, is very valuable.

Brian:

And, and that's the one where, first of all, you compete with a lot of different people, I find, at least on my side.

Brian:

But then you also, and media is the leverage to get people in the room, which changes things.

Brian:

But also you don't need like a ton of people in order to have, 'cause that's about relationships and about, you know, you don't need a, I don't know, like, I, I feel like the way you build those, these kinds of businesses is different.

Janice:

well it's interesting 'cause you know, you're, your cost of goods sold right?

Janice:

Is, is very different, right?

Janice:

Like you're, because you don't, like, you're not getting more if you add on, again, it's sort of the discipline of, You know, how little can you,

Janice:

create and put out into your audience versus how much, and knowing that every single, every bit of your communication is specialized, right?

Janice:

Like you need to be a must read.

Janice:

Like we have open rates still, like our open rates have gone up, you know, 'cause we, like, we wanna pay off every single thing you get.

Janice:

And so, so, but you don't have to incrementally increase your cost of staff, your cost of, you know, producing what you're putting out in the world.

Janice:

Because the buyer on the ad side, they, they.

Janice:

They've bought in and you, they know that they want, they don't need a million of you.

Janice:

They just need a hundred thousand of you, right?

Janice:

And, and they, maybe they don't even need a hundred thousand, maybe they just need, you know, 10,000 of that audience.

Janice:

And like, that's an ama that's an amazing thing.

Janice:

Like, and I do think, you know, I was talking about this with someone who works in ad sales at another organization the other day, that, with, you know, whatever's happening to the economy is gonna happen, tariffs, maybe a

Janice:

recession, that advertisers are going to start seeking even more specialized audiences, knowing that the, the direct impact spend is going to be that much more important.

Janice:

That they're, that they will, this person believes that they're gonna cut back on, you know, the spray and pray advertising.

Janice:

Like, just like, please God, someone see my message,

Brian:

Yeah.

Brian:

So what, on the events side, like what are you doing?

Brian:

You're doing smaller scale events that I see, but you're not doing like big events.

Janice:

Not yet.

Janice:

I mean, I would, we just, I just came back from Las Vegas where we did a big event with NAB show.

Brian:

Okay.

Brian:

That that's if you're in Vegas for an event that's big.

Janice:

Yeah, it was big.

Janice:

So, you know, NAB show, 60,000 registered attendees, they came to us.

Janice:

This is an example how of how the very, very small and the very, very big can interact in this world.

Janice:

So, NAB show approached us about partnering with them to do a business of entertainment track, on stage at, at their event.

Janice:

And so what they wanted was they wanted us to bring high level people to start building up the, the experience of being at NAB show and having a go from, you know, trade show to, media event in the way that CES has done.

Janice:

and a woman, Karen Chuko was brought over who had done that for CES for 23 years.

Janice:

And that's how we became involved.

Janice:

And it was great.

Janice:

They came to us 'cause they knew we have those relationships, they could tell.

Janice:

And it ended up being a huge success.

Janice:

We, it, it ended, you know, the whole, our, our programming called culminated with, you know, wwe.

Janice:

President Nick Kahn and its Chief Content Officer Paul Triple H lavesque on stage and like that, you know, that's, that's what we were talking about before, where sort of these industry moments can play really big in

Brian:

Mm-hmm.

Brian:

But I mean, you sort of de-risk on that.

Brian:

So you've got like, you've got a lower sort of floor, but you have a lower ceiling too, right?

Brian:

I mean, that's

Janice:

Well, we couldn't, we couldn't go stand that up.

Janice:

I would never, you know, I would

Brian:

Well, if you raised like, you know, 20 million, you might be able to, but I mean, that's a different, different era.

Janice:

So for beyond, so for our bread and butter stuff, you know, this is where we, so people, you know, so we've had partners in, you know, Netflix, you know, HBO, you know, Nat Geo, like.

Janice:

Universal, where we are putting together small events where people can, where our team gets on stage with talent, does screenings, prob, you know, or we've had a, we've created

Janice:

a pretty meaningful documentary series, with called Documentary Spotlight with Tom Powers as, in partnership with Tom Powers who runs, Pure nonfiction out of New York

Janice:

City and like this, this is where we get top talent to come on stage, talk about their documentaries, you know, we cover them.

Janice:

Editorial.

Janice:

I mean, it's, I'm not telling anyone who does these sort of events, anything they don't know, but it's been able, we've been able to put in rooms like some pretty amazing names.

Janice:

And they're the kind of rooms where people who are talking on stage actually know the people in the audience.

Janice:

And you'll, it's really nice when you see them, you know, spot a friend and they can talk and hug and stay for the reception.

Janice:

And, you know, so we're in an event environment out here where it, the feedback we've gotten from, events that come outta the Penske organization is that like, it's not, you know, you have no idea who's in the room and that oftentimes,

Janice:

like you have to bring for, you know, a deadline event, for example, you have to bring your, you can't carry a bag and you have to bring a clear plastic person, you know, so people can see what's in your bag and you know, things like that.

Janice:

Whereas we have done a really good job of building.

Janice:

Community.

Janice:

and also knowing that, and you know, you know this like, like you have to prove your case with every single event that you are only abiding by like the highest standards.

Janice:

and

Brian:

it's hard because, because sometimes the incentives are against that.

Brian:

Like we would always have that at my last company where it's like, oh.

Brian:

Yeah, no, half the audience is brands and like, you know, it's like, well, your interests are to sell more tickets to, you know, technology vendors than it is, to like get more brands in there.

Brian:

They're a cost center.

Brian:

The other one is, you know, profit center and, you know, a lot of, you know, events are that way, and so you might want to do high impact, you know, smaller, intimate events.

Brian:

But when you start to, when when you go to a spreadsheet, like it's much better to scale the events and, and I think the industrialization ends up working against the, the quality in a lot of ways.

Brian:

And I, my theory is that that's why a lot of large event, franchises have short shelf lives because I think they always lead people to, you know, put too much mayonnaise on the sandwiches.

Brian:

I say,

Janice:

I could see that.

Janice:

I mean, I think if, if, if you've gone to CES and I went this year, it's like, oh my God.

Janice:

You're like, yeah.

Janice:

I, I was like, what is happening?

Janice:

I'd never, you know, never been.

Janice:

And I was like, like, I can't even find my way somewhere.

Janice:

'cause like you're just getting, you know, you have to walk through like the, and you know, an Amazon cloud tunnel or, I mean, like, you're, you're just like, you're like, what is, like, you don't even know what's happening.

Janice:

And like that, that is sort of the opposite

Brian:

Have you ever been to like an enter, a massive enterprise software event like that?

Brian:

Salesforce, like Dreamforce.

Brian:

Oh, see, you gotta do.

Brian:

I wanted to do, I wanted to write a book where I just went to, I didn't actually want to do it, but I, like, I thought it would

Brian:

be a good book for someone else to write where they just go to enterprise software, massive events like Adobe Summit and, and

Brian:

all of those,

Janice:

Wow.

Janice:

That's a, that sounds like a Silicon Valley, episode.

Janice:

If they, if they could just, they need to come back now and do reboot that show, man.

Janice:

That would

Brian:

So how many people?

Brian:

How many people, because this is, this is an interesting question.

Brian:

'cause it goes to your, so it used to be like, well, how many people do you have?

Brian:

Like the, the, the flex was, the more people the better.

Brian:

And I almost feel like these days it's like, you know, I'm talking to people and they're like, well, how many people do you have?

Brian:

I'm like, well, like one full-time.

Brian:

Like, and they're like, that's great.

Brian:

You know, like where it used to be the total opposite where you, you'd be like, wow, we've got like, you know, 200 people.

Brian:

They're like, all right.

Janice:

Right, right.

Janice:

People.

Janice:

And when you tell people that you have one full-time person, they're like, stop there.

Janice:

You don't need to do more.

Janice:

Like, and you're like, well, I kind of could do a little more periodically.

Janice:

But, so, you know, we started year one.

Janice:

It was just three people on staff.

Janice:

It was me, Richard, and, you know, someone helping us with operations.

Janice:

And like, that was, that was crazy.

Janice:

But like, like that was, you know, we, that we just had like.

Janice:

Enormous growth that year.

Janice:

and then we've gradually added people on and sort of, we've been profitable from the first year, which has been fantastic.

Janice:

and you, you realize, you know, when you're controlling your own purse strings, like you become like, you know, a, you know, a person who living on their social security check, right?

Janice:

You're try, you're like trying to be really cheap.

Janice:

And, and it paid off.

Janice:

And then as we've begun to make more and more money, we are now up to a very lavish, I think 14 people.

Janice:

So, but that's, you know, that's getting into, you know, that's getting into, you know, it's

Brian:

it's a different industry.

Brian:

It's a different, I like it because I like the scrappy, I like the scrappy stuff.

Brian:

And I think that I'm just like more naturally, inclined to that.

Brian:

I mean, I, I understand what you say about like, controlling, 'cause like I'll do this dinners and at some point, like someone

Brian:

from like the restaurant will come by and like whisper in my ear and be like, you know, you can stay for an extra half hour.

Brian:

It'll be a, it'll just be like an extra, like a thousand dollars.

Brian:

And I'm like, all right, wrap it up.

Brian:

Everyone.

Brian:

Like hope you had a good time.

Janice:

up and you turn on the light and you're like, okay.

Brian:

You are out.

Brian:

I go.

Brian:

But yeah, I mean that's, you know, that's the more, with less era, you just gotta do it.

Janice:

Yeah.

Janice:

And I think people, you know, I think yeah, everyone understands, and I think there's, you know, when you, I mean boy, like media in this next decade is really like, really gonna be something to behold.

Janice:

And,

Janice:

yeah.

Janice:

And I do think that you, we, I think, but I do think that we'll probably see, I, you know, being a, being a small operator for a lot of people is hard, right?

Janice:

And so you, I, I wouldn't be surprised if we start to see some people join forces and start to sell, you know, sell across complimentary brands and just to have backend stuff that can be supported,

Brian:

Yeah, because it's, the problem with small businesses is they're, they're incredibly inefficient, right?

Brian:

Like, I mean, I remember like dig day we had this problem of like, you know, the six people in finance problem.

Brian:

It's like, I'm like, what?

Brian:

This is so inefficient across like a business that's like 15, $17 million to have all of this infrastructure costs that we are carrying that you can do a lot more with less now.

Brian:

But it is like confining.

Brian:

You're, you're lowering your ceiling and then you need to build up in infrastructure.

Brian:

Let's say you decide you wanna do your own like big event.

Brian:

Well, if you bring on like an events infrastructure and that's the people, you gotta do a lot of events because otherwise, I remember we had a very hardworking events

Brian:

team, but like every, like few weeks, like there, they would be like cleaning out the events closet because there weren't events.

Brian:

And like, pretty soon they became like a military where I was like, the reason that people were like, you do a lot of events, I'm like, it's 'cause we have a military.

Brian:

You gotta use the military.

Brian:

Like you gotta invade a lot of countries.

Brian:

you wanna have full utilization.

Brian:

And I think a lot of these businesses will be inefficient.

Brian:

And then on top of that, I think a, for a lot of solo people, you know, it, it is real.

Brian:

Like, you know, the sort of like burnout like factor is, is

Janice:

it's, it is like being, you know, it's, it's, it's analogous to being like one of these creators on YouTube where like, oh my God, get out the ring light.

Janice:

Here we go again.

Janice:

Like, you gotta like, you know, you gotta like, keep juicing your audience and like, you know, it's, it's, it is, and people

Janice:

have these meltdowns, you know, there have been endless stories about creators who just like burnt out and couldn't do it anymore.

Janice:

And I think, I think one of the goals is how do you keep journalists from, you know, coming to the same fate?

Brian:

Yeah.

Brian:

So let, let me just ask you on the, the platform thing.

Brian:

'cause you're, you're on, like, you're on Substack, you're one, there are a few sort of I feel like you guys are like more of like a,

Brian:

an institutional publication and like, and I would've assumed in the old days you would just be on a WordPress and you would do your own thing.

Brian:

But like, Substack has a lot of growth tools.

Brian:

You started there.

Brian:

It's still probably an awkward fit.

Brian:

I mean, I just like, sort of reverse engineer stuff.

Brian:

I'm like, okay, well you've

Janice:

is exactly

Brian:

you gotta make, you gotta, you gotta duct tape a lot of stuff together.

Brian:

It's like if you're just gonna like run a simple event.

Brian:

You need to like, take registrations for, you can't do that on Substack.

Brian:

There's, if you were gonna do, god forbid, some kind of lead gen thing, like you can't do you, there's so much stuff you can't do.

Brian:

You can copy and paste in ads, I guess, and people don't like mind, that you don't have like a regular ad server, but, it is limiting.

Brian:

But you don't have a, you don't have a tech department do you?

Janice:

No, I mean we, we've spent outside of the, you know, the 10% you pay Substack, right?

Janice:

We haven't spent $1 on tech.

Janice:

Like, that's amazing,

Janice:

right?

Janice:

Or thought about it.

Janice:

Oh no.

Janice:

I think about it when the few times

Janice:

Substack has gone down, then I think about it, but

Brian:

but anyone who has sent an email knows that stuff goes wrong all the time.

Brian:

Like getting email to show up as you want it to show up where you wanted it to show up, et cetera, is a non-trivial challenge.

Janice:

Yes.

Janice:

I mean, I, I would, I would say that like we, you know, we have, we've had an amazing relationship with, Hamish McKenzie, one of the founders of Substack.

Janice:

And he's, you know, he's been very responsive to us when we have asked for things, requested things, I'd like to think we've influenced some of their product changes.

Janice:

but yeah, I mean it's, it's, you know, you're kind of making, you're, you know, you're making what you do work in their system, right.

Janice:

And, and, but I, I would also say we've had, we've had not one second to think about how, if we were to go our own way, how, how do we do that?

Janice:

And well, you know, what does it look like?

Janice:

And it would require like this, in some ways almost a pause in the business that we haven't felt ready to do.

Brian:

Okay.

Brian:

So right now, the, the, because you, there are, look, there's trade offs to every decision

Brian:

probably in life.

Brian:

And, you know, you trade off a lot of flexibility.

Brian:

You are in some ways building a business on a platform rather than building a platform for a business.

Brian:

And that is a trade off.

Brian:

What is the sort of calculation where that trade off doesn't make sense or you just don't think of it?

Brian:

It's like right now it's not hurting the business.

Brian:

You can tell it might be a little confining, but like if it like becomes too stressful, then it's like, well, we gotta like think about whether they can change enough to suit our needs.

Janice:

I mean, honestly, it'll probably be around advertising and are we, you know, and, and you know, sub sec doesn't, doesn't want

Brian:

told them this, I've told them this for years.

Brian:

I'm like, stop it with the anti advertising stuff.

Janice:

Yeah.

Janice:

Yeah.

Janice:

And so, so I think the, the tipping point will probably be around advertising and, and then

Brian:

I told Hamish this.

Brian:

I was like, you'll never, ever in your life be able to convince me that this business, which is my business by the way, should not have advertising and should just have, have subscriptions.

Brian:

I was like, you're never gonna do it.

Janice:

No, no, no.

Janice:

And you, by the way, you, you have, you, you are your own funding, right?

Janice:

You don't have a dollar from anybody,

Brian:

No.

Brian:

So like, I'm like, no way.

Brian:

The, this is how this, the, these businesses work.

Brian:

Why in the world would quote unquote success be that 96%, of subscribers don't pay fine, let's say 98% or 90 or or, or 88%.

Brian:

It's still like, come on, who runs a business that way?

Brian:

Anyway,

Janice:

yeah.

Janice:

Well, and I would also say the other thing where I want more flexibility is in design.

Janice:

you know, I mean, remember I'm an, I'm an old school magazine editor, like,

Brian:

that must be

Janice:

like,

Brian:

right?

Brian:

I

Brian:

mean, 'cause the substack it's like very, it's like cookie cutter.

Janice:

I, and I definitely like you.

Janice:

I'm definitely held back by the limits of Substack in that front.

Janice:

And you know, sometimes I just wanna like run free and I'm not allowed to run free.

Brian:

Yeah.

Brian:

I think that's all of the topics I wanted to cover, Janice.

Brian:

I really enjoyed this.

Brian:

Anything we didn't cover that we should have?

Janice:

I mean, you mentioned at the beginning you want us to talk Vanity Fair.

Janice:

I don't

Brian:

Oh, oh, the last thing.

Brian:

Oh, the last thing?

Brian:

Yes.

Brian:

Because I, I read your quote in that.

Brian:

I do, I do another podcast that, people versus algorithms where we talked about, Troy Young used to run, Hearst Magazines.

Brian:

he was talking about the Vanity Fair job and, you know, we're, we're talking about it.

Brian:

'cause I mean, you know it very well, these jobs are shrunken.

Brian:

Like, I mean, they're not the same.

Brian:

I know David Haskell had to hit his quote, but then they balanced it out with your quote.

Brian:

Um,

Janice:

David, Granger.

Brian:

but David Granger, sorry.

Brian:

David was a David Granger, that quote.

Brian:

Anyway, that it was still a great, this is a great job.

Brian:

And you're like, well,

Janice:

I mean, it was, I think, I think what I said, it's like, I think everyone who works in media is nostalgic, right?

Janice:

You are nosto like you're, and in some ways you're getting into it 'cause you're thinking, you're thinking of what media meant to you at one point in your life and, and not necessarily facing the reality of media.

Janice:

And, I mean this is like what you were saying, I think we weren't recording yet, but when you were at Adweek and people were like, but the weekly, but the weekly and, and not wanting to necessarily post things on online.

Janice:

And, and so I would say, you know, and people think about these jobs today.

Janice:

Like, you know, one being the editor of Vanity Fair, there is a, but the magazine, but, oh my God, black Town car.

Janice:

Oh my God.

Janice:

I'm gonna like, you know, I could, I could be that person still.

Janice:

I could be a name brand editor and like, but that, like, that's just such a romanticized, version of this.

Janice:

I call it like, I call that.

Janice:

Thing that feeling like colonial Williamsburg of media where you're like, you got, you wanna like get, you know, dressed up and

Janice:

play the role and, and pretend, you know, civil War reenactor like the glory days of something and like, but like, it's gone.

Janice:

It's gone.

Janice:

And I think the, the real question is sort of, well I think Ben Smith, you know, he had the last quote in that story in the New York Times was basically, but is it a job about cutbacks or is it a job where you can have fun?

Janice:

And that's kind of up to the owner to decide.

Janice:

And I don't think we've seen anything out of Conde Nast in the last decade that makes you think this is a job where you're gonna have fun.

Brian:

Okay, so if Roger Lynch, the CEO of Conde called you up, he's like, Janice, I want your advice.

Brian:

What, what, what, what?

Brian:

What should I do with Vanity Fair?

Janice:

Wow.

Janice:

I mean, I, I guess without looking under the hood of that business.

Janice:

I don't, I don't know, but I guess if, you know, I mean, from an editorial perspective, it's like sure.

Janice:

Do great things.

Janice:

Everyone wants to do

Brian:

But I guess what is the lane, right?

Brian:

Because I think one of the things, and you're, it's like celebrity is totally different now, right?

Brian:

Like and I feel like Vanity Fair was always around celebrity and you know, minor Royals and Lichtenstein who got

Brian:

like some, into some sort of scrape

Janice:

That's ies I

Brian:

Yeah.

Janice:

for Monica.

Brian:

Yeah.

Brian:

Okay.

Brian:

But, you know, celebrity has been completely decentralized too, right?

Brian:

Like, I mean, and Hollywood is dealing with this all the time.

Brian:

The Hollywood stars, they've kind of entered the uncanny valley.

Brian:

They can't just like pop up when they have a movie to promote and go on late night.

Brian:

They gotta be like Timothy Chalamet, who's like everywhere.

Brian:

and.

Janice:

gotta go on, Theo v, right?

Janice:

And

Brian:

But then also your competition is everywhere.

Brian:

It's everyone on TikTok, it's everyone with a with, with a selfie stick, you know?

Brian:

And

Janice:

the thing that people say though about, like, about what, when they talk about with nostalgia what they miss about an old school, vanity Fair, they miss like the fun and the deliciousness and the sophistication, right?

Janice:

So it's like, it's a very, it's like a, it's like a s psychological view of what it is as opposed to like an actual work.

Janice:

They're, they have a-list talent because like everybody has a-list talent who is an A-list or it doesn't matter.

Janice:

But like it's a little bit of like, and this is why, you know, I like that people are talking about the role of editors.

Janice:

'cause it happens very, doesn't happen very often, but it really is about like a personal view of a person that is getting put on, you know, material that's out there for anyone to write about or process.

Janice:

And so I think it's that kind of thing that people.

Janice:

Miss from what it once was, right.

Janice:

That everything had become sort of like, you know, everything is just, you know, in your feet and indistinguishable and like, I think that kind of voice is probably where people could stand a chance to stand

Brian:

Hmm.

Brian:

But the last thing is, is on this, with being an editor, right?

Brian:

Like these days, like, and you mentioned this before, like authentic voices and the voice of the person is more important, and that provides a tremendous amount of leverage.

Brian:

And before it was, you had a right to.

Brian:

The brand's voice and style, and that was often set by a person, right?

Brian:

You knew and that was institutional and you had to conform to that.

Brian:

Whereas the marketplace is valuing, you know, people's being like themselves.

Brian:

How do you think that changes, like the role though of the editor, right?

Brian:

Because you're not, that's sort of top down, hierarchical approach.

Brian:

Seems like that's been obliterated.

Janice:

Yeah, I, I would say in, in how I do it here, it's like, I will help you make your piece better.

Janice:

Like, I'm not going to, you know, I mean this goes, you know, going way back to when I was a writer at People Magazine at my first

Janice:

magazine job, the byline of the person was of such little consequence that you were just a tagline at the bottom of the story.

Janice:

'cause you were writing in a Voice of Time Inc. And like, you better not deviate from that.

Janice:

And the point was for it to be indistinguishable from your colleagues' writing.

Janice:

And so at, I would say at The Ankler, I am, you know, I am helping you make that better.

Janice:

And in some ways, and oftentimes I'm telling people like, loosen up, say this in a way you like, this is, you know, like lose, like put yourself in this.

Janice:

And, and that, that is one of the differences.

Janice:

But a lot of the story choices, like I'm still very involved with, like, it's kind, it's like.

Janice:

Helping you.

Janice:

And I, I've always thought this, like, part of what I do is like, not, not just helping you sort of conceptualize something, not helping you make hopefully what you have written better, but also helping you get it across the finish line.

Janice:

Like how are we making that a bigger story in the outside world as well?

Janice:

And so yeah, but I'm not sitting there like rewriting people into the voice of The Ankler.

Janice:

'cause that's not what people want.

Janice:

Right.

Janice:

So, and that, that is absolutely like an outgrowth of like the creator economy of the last decade.

Janice:

Like people don't want homogenized, you know, fire hose bland, you know, like, you know, they don't wanna to sound like it's from Upworthy or what does that exist anymore?

Janice:

Still?

Brian:

Uh, well, digital media brand, I think media brands in general never die.

Brian:

I think Jim Span Feller had said this, but yeah.

Brian:

Digital media brands

Janice:

how's

Brian:

never, never, never die because they can always be harvested for some kind of, you know, value, you know, from

Brian:

the IP value In the classiest instances I just had, the previous podcast I did was with Jimmy Hutchinson, who's, doing spin

Janice:

The, oh my

Brian:

there's still value, there's still value in spin, you know, and then the digital media brands, there's still SEO value in pretty much anything.

Brian:

I mean, outside of Gawker, it takes something tremendous to kill, like fully kill like

Janice:

Well this is the, this is the IP story of Hollywood.

Janice:

Like I'd rather take an, you know, the buyers would rather take any piece of IP and make it into something new instead of an original idea.

Janice:

'cause it's just easier to market, it's easier to get in front of an audience.

Brian:

Okay.

Brian:

On that depressing note, Janice, thank you.

Brian:

This is a lot of fun.

Brian:

I'm glad we did it.

Janice:

Brian.

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