Episode 161

Inside HubSpot's go-direct media playbook

Kyle Denhoff, head of audience development for HubSpot Media, joined me to talk about how HubSpot has built one of the most effective media operations inside a tech company. We discuss how HubSpot’s practical, non-ideological approach to inbound marketing evolved into a full-fledged media business spanning newsletters, podcasts, and creator partnerships. Kyle shares how HubSpot balances editorial independence with business goals, the economics of building durable audience relationships, and why companies are better off thinking long-term rather than treating marketing like a vending machine. HubSpot's go-direct playbook offers a glimpse into how companies are rethinking owned media as a strategic asset, not just a marketing channel.

Thanks to Marigold for sponsoring this episode. See how Hearst UK uses Sailthru by Marigold and Marigold Liveclicker to connect with millions of readers daily using personalization that feels one-to-one. From onboarding to retention, read to learn their winning strategy.


Transcript
Brian:

Welcome to The Rebooting Show.

Brian:

I am Brian Morrisey This episode is sponsored by Marigold, the cross-channel marketing platform, transforming how publishers engage with and convert audiences.

Brian:

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Brian:

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Brian:

Thank you so much to Marigold for your support.

Brian:

also one other note on Marigold.

Brian:

We recently, actually last week partnered, on an online forum where we dug into, Metro UK and how it has used personalization to spin up newsletters in horoscopes.

Brian:

And sports that had tremendous engagement.

Brian:

I mean, these newsletters, are getting up to 50% click-through rates.

Brian:

And we dug into the details with, with Metro, UK and Marigold.

Brian:

You can see the replay if you go to the link in the show notes.

Brian:

this week I am following one of my, I don't know, one of my big sort of macro trends that I've been following for a few years and, and that's this go direct movement, you know,

Brian:

I think it like sprung up a lot during the pandemic and you know, a lot of it was a little bit of a zero interest rate phenomenon.

Brian:

And I think when.

Brian:

When Coinbase was talking about opening up a movie studio, I, I sort of, you know, I, I looked for the exit side on that, but I do think this is one of the biggest shifts happening right now, in the information space, if you will.

Brian:

because you know, the costs of production have come down.

Brian:

I. So much.

Brian:

And, there is the opportunity, for companies and it's being led in tech and that is usually how things go to bypass traditional media gatekeepers and build their own audiences directly.

Brian:

I mean, media is mispriced, it is not, I. Valued right now in the market, as high as the impact that it has, just because the monetization, systems have not caught up with the influence, at least in my view.

Brian:

So I wanted to talk to a company that's been at the forefront of that.

Brian:

And so gonna be talking with Kyle Denhoff of HubSpot.

Brian:

'cause HubSpot was.

Brian:

You know, an early mover in this trend, I mean, long before Andreessen Horowitz was building quasi podcast empire.

Brian:

And, and it recently, bought Turpentine Media, a podcast network, just a couple weeks ago.

Brian:

You know, HubSpot was pioneering the idea of companies acting.

Brian:

Like media companies.

Brian:

It, it coined the term inbound marketing to describe, a new way of approaching customer acquisition.

Brian:

And not by chasing attention and, and necessarily just relying solely on ads, but, you know, earning it really by producing useful content.

Brian:

And that meant a lot of SEO optimized blog posts, particularly as people sort of mimic this, playbook.

Brian:

But HubSpot didn't, you know, end there.

Brian:

it acquired, you know, the hustle in 2021 and, you know, the hustle was.

Brian:

I guess it was like in the Bloods and Crips of the newsletter world.

Brian:

It was, the Morning Brew and the Hustle.

Brian:

I don't know which was the Blood, which was the Crips.

Brian:

but, the hustle, exited to HubSpot.

Brian:

It was a really good fit.

Brian:

I think it was surprising at the time, but you know, they, they not only got The Hustle and its massive email audience, particularly of like entrepreneurs, you know, who are, who are starting out businesses, who are really good.

Brian:

It's a really good target for, for HubSpot, but also the My First Million podcast, which has grown to a monster.

Brian:

It's like one of the mo most popular business podcasts.

Brian:

I, I like it.

Brian:

It's, it's, hosted by, Sean Pur and, Sam Parr.

Brian:

and.

Brian:

They're great, they're great personalities and they're, they're super smart to boot.

Brian:

and they've started to grow their own like creator network.

Brian:

So Kyle is, is technically, he's the head of audience development, for HubSpot Media.

Brian:

and he does, he does a lot more beyond that title.

Brian:

His team focuses on content strategy, audience growth, and creator partnerships, including sponsorship and licensing, deals with independent podcasters, newsletter writers and YouTubers.

Brian:

They're very big into YouTube and this is something that we go into and I think.

Brian:

This kind of role that Kyle has will probably be fairly standard at just about all companies of any size, because I don't think this kind of trend is ending.

Brian:

And Kyle and I talk about it, we get into like how you judge ROI on these kind of media investments, right?

Brian:

because if you don't show up with the receipts, you're gonna be the first thing.

Brian:

That is cut.

Brian:

And I think it's noteworthy because this is a big investment for a company like HubSpot.

Brian:

And, from everything that I see and from what Kyle says it is, it is working well.

Brian:

So I expect there will be many imitators.

Brian:

So here is my conversation with Kyle

Brian:

All right, Kyle, thank you so much for joining me.

Brian:

on Good Friday afternoon,

Kyle:

Hey Brian.

Kyle:

Thanks for having me.

Brian:

we're gonna do a stations of the cross after this.

Brian:

We're like the last people like working for

Kyle:

right.

Kyle:

Everybody's logged

Brian:

holiday weekends.

Brian:

This is hardcore.

Brian:

Is this on our side or your side that decided to do it this time?

Brian:

no.

Brian:

I wanna have you on because like I think of like HubSpot as, I. One of the forerunners of something that we're seeing everywhere.

Brian:

Like I call it the information space and everyone is in the media business.

Brian:

It's been completely decentralized and democratized and some people sort of lament that and usually, for competitive reasons.

Brian:

I came to understand that.

Brian:

And then with ai, obviously it's gonna become even more chaotic, but I think that's fun.

Brian:

but I think you guys were really early on and I. You know, it was like, I think HubSpot coined the term inbound marketing.

Brian:

Right?

Brian:

And I always

Kyle:

They publish the book.

Brian:

Yeah.

Brian:

Okay.

Brian:

Well, I, I, I wasn't sure if anyone else had had that, but like, you know, I always thought, well, yeah, I mean, you're gonna do a lot of, you know, SEO optimize like, you know, blogs and, and newsletters and I understand that.

Brian:

but you've really gone into having your own media assets, right?

Brian:

And I see this.

Brian:

You know, pendulums always swing in the squirrel and like, you know, sometimes, like over the years, you know, brands would be like, you know, Pepsi would be like, we're gonna be making our own content.

Brian:

And I'm like the only person in the world who remembers Bud tv, but I'll keep it alive.

Brian:

I. Because back in like the early two thousands, do you know about Bud tv?

Kyle:

I don't, I don't.

Brian:

Anheuser-Busch plowed all of this money, into having their own, they were gonna, it was framed like they were gonna compete with YouTube, not be on YouTube, compete with it.

Brian:

This is when, this is obviously a long time

Kyle:

Really going after it.

Brian:

Yeah.

Brian:

And they poured so much money.

Brian:

Joe Buck had a show on there.

Brian:

and high production values.

Brian:

They, they were using smuggler, which I don't know if it's still right.

Brian:

It's some really expensive productions.

Brian:

You know, the, they were, they were doing it basically the same as they would do with like a TV commercial, but that's only 30 seconds when you start to do that over like hours.

Brian:

So basically it became like a money pit.

Brian:

And then a lot of brands were like, oh yeah, we don't.

Brian:

Don't have anything to do with that, but nowadays it's, to me it's like a no brainer.

Brian:

And like you guys now have, you own your own like media assets.

Brian:

You bought the hustle a few years back.

Brian:

I think it was 2021.

Brian:

you know, you have a creator program and I wanna talk all about that.

Brian:

So

Kyle:

I love it.

Brian:

first thing was like, I was like struck by, you know, your LinkedIn, you know, you've got a parenthetical next to senior director of marketing.

Brian:

I. Is content led growth.

Brian:

Now, I knew product led growth, but introduced me to this world of content led growth.

Kyle:

Yeah, so similar.

Kyle:

It's a, you know, a term I think in the B2B tech space, you know, on the media side, in our media business, I run audience development, but I think for tech companies, it's a matter of like, are

Kyle:

you developing content to attract and acquire an audience and eventually turn that audience into demand and revenue for the software business.

Kyle:

So it's a term I've seen out there.

Kyle:

I know Lenny's done a couple posts on it.

Kyle:

so more the positioning for the, the tech company that, that I. work for, but at the end of the day, all of my work's focused on audience development for the media business.

Brian:

Okay, so give us an idea of the contours of the media business.

Kyle:

Sure.

Kyle:

So HubSpot Media, as you mentioned, we acquired The Hustle back in 2021 and we've kind of gone on this, journey over the last couple years to.

Kyle:

Bring The Hustle into HubSpot.

Kyle:

And at the time, The Hustle actually remained independent for probably six or nine months before we ended up hiring a head of HubSpot Media.

Kyle:

And at that time, we brought together the editorial side from the Hustle with some of the performance marketing growth folks from HubSpot and built up the HubSpot media business.

Kyle:

And so at this point, HubSpot Media is a little over.

Kyle:

50 50 folks, writers, editors, producers, monetization, growth marketers.

Kyle:

and we've built out this portfolio.

Kyle:

So it started with The Hustle in My First Million, which folks are obviously, familiar with.

Kyle:

But over the last couple years we've launched, media brands for marketers, for sellers.

Kyle:

We've moved into the AI space and did an AI email newsletter acquisition last year.

Kyle:

So we're building up a portfolio that's.

Kyle:

Continuing to bring in new audiences for the business.

Kyle:

And I think what's great about HubSpot Media is we are kind of adjacent to the marketing and sales organization.

Kyle:

We have that editorial independence to build up these brands, and so we're able to attract talent and then bring in audiences just through value like news and education and stories.

Kyle:

and eventually, you know, as, as you've talked about in the past, turn that audience into leads for the business and figuring out that balance.

Brian:

Yeah, I wanna get into the mechanism, of that we can, we can go deep into B2B marketing.

Brian:

We can talk about.

Kyle:

All day.

Brian:

MQL is SQLs of the whole, all of it.

Brian:

I, I live it, you know, I do.

Brian:

and I love it.

Brian:

but I wanna talk a little bit about just the overall thesis because, We live in an era where, I mean, this is my sort of, you know, outsider perspective that a lot of marketers stop marketing in my view.

Brian:

They were, they've been looking at dashboards.

Brian:

They've thought that marketing was, like a customer vending machine where you're just like, you know, you keep feeding in quotas and then you take out, maybe it's like one

Brian:

of those claw things, but actually that has some kind of skill, but you just feed in on a bunch of quarters and then customers come out, at the bottom and the platforms.

Brian:

Got everyone to me like hooked on this idea that you're, you're not really marketing, you're buying distribution.

Brian:

It's buying shelf space and that's fine.

Brian:

There's always been buying shelf space and buying distribution, but it, it is different to me than marketing.

Brian:

Right.

Brian:

how do you end up the, the media is obviously very powerful, right?

Brian:

And it's always been, it's always been like.

Brian:

More powerful than it.

Brian:

It's been like bigger.

Brian:

They always said big brands, small businesses, right?

Brian:

Like as a business, media is not exactly, the best.

Brian:

There's, there's a lot easier ways to make money, honestly, than to run a media business, I gotta say.

Brian:

Real estate energy.

Brian:

There's lots of different areas, tech, uh, for instance, but media is very good at like getting attention, but like, it is different than performance.

Brian:

Like how, and I guess you guys were unique in that it was in the DNA with the inbound marketing approach, right?

Kyle:

Yeah, exactly right.

Kyle:

I mean, culturally, one of the things that HubSpot's always talked about is offer value before you extract value.

Kyle:

And like we.

Kyle:

Position ourselves to be able to provide audiences, whether they're customers or not, with free news, free education stories, insights, perspectives from experts.

Kyle:

And ultimately the goal is to be able to build an audience.

Kyle:

And I think we see the audience as an asset, right?

Kyle:

We may sell to that audience in the next 90 days.

Kyle:

We may sell to that audience.

Kyle:

36 months from now.

Kyle:

But we're building an audience of folks who engage with us, start to introduce them to HubSpot, the business, and they get to know us through the content and the value we provide them.

Kyle:

And so I do think there's a lot of companies that talk about doing this, but they always revert back to short term thinking and like content that's about the product itself or the, the functional features of it, as opposed to can you actually.

Kyle:

Build value build.

Kyle:

Can you build a media product that people want to come back to every week?

Kyle:

And I think that's our approach and that's a differentiator for us for sure.

Brian:

Yeah, because I mean, the hustle is not, I mean, it's not about CRMs.

Brian:

And my first million does not talk about CRMs a lot, I noticed.

Brian:

and you know, I think that the normal.

Brian:

Look, it's like the cliche is in, in consumer market is make the logo bigger, but Right.

Brian:

Like, it's like, can we, can we make the, I guess the B2B version is like, can we, some of the product specs though in there,

Kyle:

Yep.

Brian:

so, you know, I think it does take a longer term view that a lot of people, you know, don't have.

Brian:

But like, who was the experience with?

Brian:

The hustle, in you have to produce like results, right?

Brian:

But you don't want to, you don't want to kill the asset.

Brian:

And, and, you know, it's been three years now, so like, you know, a lot of people have, have killed assets that they've purchased, particularly when they're outside, you know, the media world.

Brian:

and usually I think it's because.

Brian:

If they wanna make it more about the product itself, necessarily, like how did you, what, what were your sort of like lessons that you learned over, you know, the last few years with having the hustle do what it's always been good at, right.

Brian:

For, for that audience, but at the same time, you know, there's a spreadsheet somewhere

Kyle:

Yeah, of course, of course.

Kyle:

Right.

Brian:

you got, you gotta put the m qls and SQLs up on the board.

Kyle:

yeah, I always joke with my team 'cause like during the week I may be in a meeting and I'm a B2B demand gen marketer, right?

Kyle:

I'm talking conversion rate leads, M QLS influenced MRR.

Kyle:

And then I'm in other meetings where we're talking about story pitches, angles, internal sources, external sources.

Kyle:

What are we gonna talk about this week?

Brian:

We have

Kyle:

And that balance.

Kyle:

Yeah.

Kyle:

Yeah.

Kyle:

It's, it makes it a lot of fun to be honest with you.

Kyle:

Is like, how do you figure out that balance?

Kyle:

That mix?

Kyle:

I do, I will say like, I was a member of the team, post hustle acquisition, so I was in the strategy and ops role at the time and

Kyle:

got to spend a lot of time with kind of the OG hustle crew as they called themselves and their Slack channel internally and.

Kyle:

Working with Sam and Steph and, and Brad, you start to figure out like, what, what are they all about?

Kyle:

Like how do they find great stories?

Kyle:

What are the angles?

Kyle:

How do they develop those stories?

Kyle:

and how can we run a thread back to the business?

Kyle:

And I do think we've gone through a few iterations over the last couple years, but.

Kyle:

We've expanded the Hustle Newsletter into a franchise at this point.

Kyle:

We have a daily podcast.

Kyle:

We have a YouTube channel with over 150,000 subs, and we're now figuring out that motion around how do we get audiences to come back

Kyle:

to that hustle content each and every week, the startup, the entrepreneurial, audience, and then introduce them, to HubSpot over time.

Kyle:

And there's absolutely a spreadsheet, right?

Kyle:

I think on all of our media products, they have their goals that are.

Kyle:

Are set for the editorial team, but the monetization and odd dev teams are very much focused on audience growth, conversion rate, and, and leads driven for the business.

Kyle:

But I do think we approach lead generation a little differently than folks.

Kyle:

I think as a tech company reaching out to, you know, a traditional publisher or media buyer.

Kyle:

You're plugging your product and it's disruptive in the middle of their experience when they're watching a video or reading a newsletter.

Kyle:

We don't wanna disrupt our audiences.

Kyle:

So we're actually creating premium content assets that are an extension of what's being presented in front of the audience on that media product.

Kyle:

So.

Kyle:

To give you like a tangible example, you could be watching a hustle video, about a really unconventional business gas station, pizza empires, right?

Kyle:

And within that video, we'll actually do an extended cut, in an interview.

Kyle:

With the person who founded that company, or we'll talk to them about the economics of their business and we'll wrap that into like a downloadable asset to pair with that video.

Kyle:

And I think that's just a unique value offering where you're not only in the mindset of watching this great story, but if you are someone who is interested in business and and launching your own products and being an entrepreneur.

Kyle:

There's kind of this utility asset that aligns to the content, and so that's one of the motions we've been building with them.

Brian:

But, but what comes first?

Brian:

I guess that's the question.

Brian:

'cause you, you're like, you're balancing the line, right?

Brian:

Because look, this is a business at, at the end of the day, it, it is a business and you know, you have to deliver the results.

Brian:

But then at the same time, you obviously, if the hustle becomes, you know, sponsor tour, then it's gonna lose the value that attracted it to you in the first place.

Brian:

I mean, it's just inevitable.

Brian:

It, it'll have a different type of value, but the value is going to be different.

Brian:

But at the same time, like it is not efficient.

Brian:

I don't think it would be efficient to buy an asset, like the hustle just to have access to ad inventory.

Kyle:

Sure.

Kyle:

Yeah.

Kyle:

I think what's unique about the ad inventory is we're.

Kyle:

For us, right?

Kyle:

It's a strategic asset.

Kyle:

We can deploy that inventory to drive pipeline for the business.

Kyle:

We might be able to use it for partnerships, whether it's a publisher or a creator that we're working with.

Kyle:

I do think not being reliant on that ad revenue gives us a lot of strategic flexibility in how we use that inventory.

Kyle:

When folks joined HubSpot, the hustle, like one of the core principles was editorial independence.

Kyle:

And I think if you talk to the writers editors, we've kept that over the last three years and we act, actually have that same principle when we work with independent creators.

Kyle:

To your point.

Kyle:

They're gonna lose the trust of the audience if it starts to feel overly produced, overly scripted by kind of the corporate brand partner.

Kyle:

we know that, that the in independence and is actually, an asset for us and it's more risky to take that away.

Kyle:

And so we've completely allowed our.

Kyle:

Our editorial teams to focus on just building great media products for the audiences we serve.

Kyle:

And then it's on, it's on us, the odd dev and monetization team to figure out, okay, how do we add additional value?

Kyle:

How do we move those audiences

Brian:

Okay, so they, you're not making them marketers necessarily, like, I mean, so like, are they, are they accountable on, you know, qualified leads or are they accountable on more like, you know, media, media metrics?

Kyle:

More media metrics, I'd say, you know, the editorial teams are looking at those signal metrics, right?

Kyle:

So if you're a newsletter writer, you're looking at unique open rate, you're looking at click-through rate, top articles, pa average time on page, if you're a. Supervising

Kyle:

producer, you're looking at click-through rate, average view duration, time spent with US subscriber growth on the channel.

Kyle:

That's where they're spending their time for audience development monetization.

Kyle:

Right.

Kyle:

I'm, I'm working with my editorial partners every day on, okay, so what are the top performing pieces of content?

Kyle:

What are unique ways that we can introduce them to our premium offerings, to move them further down?

Kyle:

HubSpots funnel.

Kyle:

So it is a tough balance, to be honest with you, I think.

Kyle:

But at least for us, we've, we've stuck to that core principle of editorial independence is gonna make a great product.

Kyle:

and if we have a great product, we'll have larger audiences to work with.

Brian:

Yeah.

Brian:

Now with the Hustle came My First Million, like I, it was popular when you.

Brian:

Bought it, but it's kind of like, I feel like it's kind of exploded since then.

Kyle:

Yeah.

Kyle:

The audience growth is about four x at this point since

Brian:

I just had a call like earlier today.

Brian:

I'm not like making this up like, so, and someone was like, I don't if you, did you see this My First Million, like one of their, their episodes is, I was like, oh my God, I'm doing a podcast later.

Kyle:

Yeah, we'll be talking about it.

Brian:

yeah, they didn't even, yeah.

Brian:

So Sam Par, who, who founded, the Hustle.

Brian:

He, he co-hosts it with, Sean Puri.

Brian:

Is it Purry

Kyle:

Purry.

Kyle:

Yep.

Brian:

Pur.

Brian:

they got a great dynamic.

Brian:

They're, they're good characters.

Brian:

I, I, I greatly enjoy, the podcast.

Brian:

However, it has grown quite a bit and like I actually, I saw Sam, I'm like, I think it would be way more valuable outside of HubSpot than like inside HubSpot at this point.

Brian:

Like a podcast of that like size.

Brian:

Like is very valuable on its own.

Brian:

And how do you think about that relative to, you know, it's very valuable to like HubSpot, right?

Brian:

But I don't know if it wouldn't be more valuable, like outside of HubSpot.

Kyle:

I hope not.

Kyle:

I think we're putting a lot into

Brian:

I'm trying to do some m and a here.

Kyle:

Yeah.

Kyle:

Yeah.

Kyle:

I mean, at least for, it came over in the Hustle acquisition and I've done a lot of work with Sam and Sean.

Kyle:

obviously started off as an audio only show.

Kyle:

We moved into YouTube and that's where we really saw a ton of.

Kyle:

Growth, and we've done a lot with those guys to grow the show.

Kyle:

We're investing in events, we're investing in partnerships.

Kyle:

The goal is to, you know, have that be one of the top business podcasts on YouTube and, and in the space.

Kyle:

And I think for us, we just continue to invest in it.

Kyle:

We see the value in it, both from.

Kyle:

Just a content standpoint.

Kyle:

I think to your point, they have a great dynamic.

Kyle:

They tell really interesting stories.

Kyle:

and we know that entrepreneurs love their content.

Kyle:

I can't tell you how many times I go to a dinner party or even like my father-in-law came over one day and he was like, do you know about this?

Kyle:

Like my first million show?

Kyle:

'cause he's like trying to start a hot side hustle.

Kyle:

I'm like, yes, they're part of HubSpot Media.

Kyle:

It's just an in incredible show that's getting a lot of reach for us.

Kyle:

And I had mentioned that monetization motion we're starting to collaborate with Sam and Sean.

Kyle:

I'm like, what does that look like?

Kyle:

What can we offer your, your listeners, your viewers, in addition to the show, to, to help.

Kyle:

Add value to you.

Kyle:

So we've done some like custom, templates or guides from, from Sam.

Kyle:

We're starting to think about, like, I love what the information is doing with directories and databases.

Kyle:

We're like, can we create something with Sam and Sean?

Kyle:

That's a valuable addition for those entrepreneurs that watch the show.

Kyle:

So it's a fantastic asset for us, but, you know, I think it's, it's an anchor and it's gonna continue to be valuable.

Brian:

Yeah, but there's no like third party monetization.

Kyle:

There's not, there's not.

Kyle:

I mean, I, if you go to the channel, I think, you know, ad ad monetization is turned on the YouTube channel.

Kyle:

It's a fairly insignificant amount.

Kyle:

We're not doing any ad sales, we're really leveraging it to, to build audience.

Kyle:

At this point, I.

Brian:

And so that like, so are podcasts good for like leads?

Kyle:

I think it depends on the format.

Kyle:

I, we've, we've figured

Brian:

Say yes, I wanna take this to my, my clients.

Kyle:

Yeah.

Kyle:

Yeah, definitely.

Kyle:

I mean, we audio only know, right?

Kyle:

I mean, it's a matter of consumption habits.

Kyle:

It's like if I'm listening to a show on Spotify, it's probably in my car or at the gym or on a walk or something.

Kyle:

There's nothing I can click and download.

Kyle:

YouTube has been a, a huge unlock for us and a big investment.

Kyle:

We've figured out that.

Kyle:

Folks are watching on their desktop, listening in the background.

Kyle:

We've seen actually a spike in folks watching on their TVs.

Kyle:

and we figured out a motion to get them to take an action.

Kyle:

and so we're able to drive a fairly significant number of leads outta the YouTube channels.

Brian:

Okay, so YouTube is good for, I mean obviously YouTube is, is massive.

Brian:

I mean it's, it's TV at this point, right?

Brian:

And.

Brian:

And a lot of these, I, we need a new term.

Brian:

Like podcasts is not the right term.

Brian:

'cause

Kyle:

I know.

Brian:

are, they're almost like YouTube shows, podcasts.

Brian:

I don't know what it, what it is exactly.

Brian:

but it's interesting.

Brian:

So like you can get some kind of interaction more likely with, with the YouTube component, like that makes it way more valuable.

Kyle:

Yeah.

Kyle:

It's the, there's real estate for that click.

Kyle:

I think like within YouTube, whether it's inside the video itself, within the description or first comment on a video, there's a place for a, a brand to put a link and have someone take an action.

Kyle:

I also think people are just a little more engaged and proactive.

Kyle:

Dev when they're on YouTube, right?

Kyle:

It's a one-to-one visual medium.

Kyle:

You're sitting at your desktop watching something, you might click and go check out something else on your second screen.

Kyle:

But it's definitely more proactive than kind of like passively listening to a show, when you're going on a walk.

Kyle:

So we've just.

Kyle:

Seen that motion.

Kyle:

both on like, I think podcast type shows, those talk shows, but also on more like explainers or educational formats where folks are trying to learn something.

Kyle:

getting them to take another action to continue their learning has been something we've been successful with.

Brian:

Okay, so tell me about the creator network, because obviously, you know, I think one of the big things in, in, you know,

Brian:

what I call the information space is like institutions have kind of given away to individ individuals, at least at this point in time.

Brian:

there's just more trust, more authenticity, et cetera.

Brian:

And, obviously marketers are adapting to that.

Brian:

And a lot of times it's, it's too.

Brian:

It's through ad campaign.

Brian:

I mean, usually marketers, it's like, okay, that's the way, you know, we're gonna adapt there.

Brian:

Now I, I have a lot of doubts about companies themselves creating their own, like influencers necessarily.

Brian:

But Tell me what you're, you're you're trying to do with the Creator network.

Kyle:

Yeah, the individual and institution line, I'm pretty sure I've used that in an internal memo.

Kyle:

referencing, referencing, your work.

Kyle:

I think for us, it.

Kyle:

It's a matter of approaching creators differently.

Kyle:

I think if you're a media company, you're probably approaching creators more for collaboration or talent, right?

Kyle:

Like someone to work with to produce a show.

Kyle:

if you're a brand, like you said, I'm treating creators as influencers.

Kyle:

I have a campaign coming up.

Kyle:

I want to give them my brief, my talking points.

Kyle:

I want 'em to deliver the message in a unique way, but I also wanna sign off and have approval on that post.

Kyle:

That's not what we're.

Kyle:

That's not what we're about.

Kyle:

That's not what we've built at HubSpot.

Kyle:

Our, our whole program is built to encourage creators to continue growing their media products and maintain that editorial independence.

Kyle:

So I've talked to other folks in the space, whether it's at Alex Lieberman or Lenny, and like.

Kyle:

The, the networks that people are building, you're testing different models, whether it's like a accelerator program or rev share agreements if you're doing ads.

Kyle:

For us, it's structured more like a a fund, so we have a budget to invest in creators and we can do like a seed stage investment where we're just getting to know each other.

Kyle:

We have emerging creators, folks who we think have.

Kyle:

Great audience alignment, great topical alignment, similar editorial values.

Kyle:

We wanna do some expanded work with them, and then full blown established media partnerships.

Kyle:

They speak at our events, we co-create content together.

Kyle:

we've co-created, a show with Matt Wolf and a I YouTuber.

Kyle:

so we've built it more as like an investment model and how do we partner with creators?

Kyle:

Give them the capital to continue making a great media product, but then also be more of a partner and advisor on like audience development.

Kyle:

and that's been, at least taking that approach, has, has been successful for us.

Kyle:

We've expanded from podcasts into YouTube and we're moving more into newsletters this year.

Brian:

So how do you judge that that's valuable?

Brian:

I mean, this sounds great.

Brian:

Like, you know, you're a fund and you're, you're helping them grow their properties, but like, they gotta, they gotta, they gotta deliver leads for you, right?

Kyle:

They do, they do.

Kyle:

I think it's, it's a balance, right?

Kyle:

I think with any fund you have like anchors that do a lot of work for you, and then you have some bets you're making for us, depending on the relationship we're building.

Kyle:

Say it's a podcast for example, we're not expecting leads from them.

Kyle:

I.

Kyle:

Our goal is to, to move into different audience segments and niches.

Kyle:

We wanna partner with folks who have already built up trust with those audiences.

Kyle:

We love their content.

Kyle:

We think there's additional value we can get from working together, having them contribute a column to our blog or speak at our event.

Kyle:

And so we develop that partnership so it's beneficial for both the creator and HubSpot media if you're working with.

Kyle:

A newsletter writer or a YouTube channel, that, that has built up a pretty significant following.

Kyle:

There is a lead gen component to it, right?

Kyle:

we have to be able to make that investment and show, okay, audiences from these media products are coming over to HubSpot and eventually, supporting pipeline development for the business.

Kyle:

But I would say it's not our like.

Kyle:

Core metric we're optimizing against.

Kyle:

Because I think our biggest worry is short-term thinking like the, what we wanna do is build a network of authoritative voices.

Kyle:

We wanna build a network of media products that people come back to and we continue to grow together.

Kyle:

And we think that that that reach and that audience growth and that influence.

Kyle:

Outweighs the demand it can drive in the next 30 days.

Kyle:

now it's a tough balance, right?

Kyle:

Like we have lead goals to hit you.

Kyle:

You work with your partners and your clients in figuring how to, how to hit those numbers, and we're doing the same thing.

Kyle:

and I think we've built kind of like cost and return models that, that prove that you can build an audience over time and eventually influence revenue.

Kyle:

For HubSpot, the software company.

Brian:

Yeah, I mean, it's really hard in.

Brian:

B2B, like everyone, obviously performance is, is everything, right?

Brian:

Like there's the days where you couldn't perform are are over, right?

Brian:

But like the idea that like someone is in the market for like A CRM at that moment in time, in 30 day window.

Brian:

I mean, just, it just, I, what are the chances?

Brian:

Like, I mean like, you know some, sure.

Brian:

But like, you know, the fact that you can't just show up.

Brian:

In, in that 30 day period.

Brian:

I don't, I mean, I, I,

Kyle:

No, you're exactly right.

Kyle:

Yeah.

Kyle:

A majority, a majority of the audiences we're reaching are not in the market to buy software right now.

Kyle:

Right.

Kyle:

I think it is that long-term bet.

Kyle:

We're saying we want to

Brian:

this.

Brian:

I'm gonna clip this and use

Kyle:

It is, it is.

Kyle:

It's, I do think there's a, there's so, one, there's a ton of brand value from it, right?

Kyle:

Brand association with these authoritative voices.

Kyle:

Many time they're practitioners, even though I know this week we talked about pundits, but we're, these creators have built trust with audiences and we wanna work with them and be associated with them.

Kyle:

And it goes back to that, that core principle value I mentioned earlier around offer value before we extract value.

Kyle:

And the last thing I would say on this is like, you can't be in the consideration set when someone's ready to buy software if they've never heard of you before.

Kyle:

Right?

Kyle:

And it takes time for them to hear about you and trust you.

Kyle:

And we think that media is a way to attract and acquire audiences and eventually down the road when they're ready, hopefully they'll consider us.

Brian:

Right.

Brian:

I wanna talk to you a little bit about SEO.

Brian:

as I said, like inbound to me, I, we used to do these things like when I was at Digiday with like what people say and what they mean and when they say I would've done one, like inbound marketing, what they really mean, SEO.

Brian:

Um, and there's a lot of that in marketing.

Brian:

It's fun to do.

Brian:

but obviously Google's going through it right now.

Brian:

I mean, there, there's.

Brian:

You know, I don't know some of the numbers they put out, I just don't.

Brian:

Totally just, maybe it's just me.

Brian:

I'm like, I'm using Chet like every day all the time.

Brian:

Like my

Kyle:

All the time.

Brian:

and publishers have been dealing with, you know, Google is trying to shift and trying to recalibrate and search, which was always the most reliable.

Brian:

Audience development source has become unreliable in many way shapes or form.

Brian:

I would think that that would have.

Brian:

A, a, a big impact on, on an inbound strategy.

Kyle:

Oh yeah, significant impact.

Kyle:

you know, HubSpot, the marketing team had invested a significant amount into SEO and blog content over a decade.

Kyle:

but.

Kyle:

Our internals and some of the more like, market shifts over the last couple years told us that hey, we're gonna need to diversify, our investments and, and our distribution sources.

Kyle:

And so, we have seen.

Kyle:

Dips on our blog, on our site.

Kyle:

just I think a couple reasons.

Kyle:

One is core algorithm changes from Google.

Kyle:

Two is the introduction of those AI tools that folks are going to to get answers.

Kyle:

We're trying to figure out how do we still, capture demand when someone is in the market looking for a solution.

Kyle:

I think folks are still doing research and looking for solutions through Google or through those AI tools, but we're in a world at this point, which you mentioned.

Kyle:

It's like.

Kyle:

Information, consumption is just fragmented.

Kyle:

It's like anybody on their phone can go to YouTube, go to Spotify, go to Gmail, go to chat, GPT, all on the same day.

Kyle:

It's not like folks are just going to Google to get what they need anymore.

Kyle:

And so for us, we've had to figure out, okay, well how do we reach those people when.

Kyle:

They're not searching on the channel.

Kyle:

They used to.

Kyle:

And a lot of times another term we talk about is just, it's zero click.

Kyle:

These platforms are keeping people on the the platforms and they're incentivized to do that, which hurts publishers as well.

Kyle:

Like how do we get folks over to our own products?

Kyle:

So it's definitely a tough balance.

Kyle:

I think these last two years have been challenging.

Brian:

Yeah, it's gonna get even more challenging with, You know, I mean the, the, you know, it looks like Google's gonna get broken up with, its, its ad tech business and then it has less of an incentive to send traffic out to publishers.

Brian:

Like, I'm like, you can complain all you want, but like, be careful what you wish for because they at least, you know, the system right now is very imperfect, but for publishers that, you know, have ad businesses, there was at least.

Brian:

You know, a TA at Understanding, yeah, we're gonna send you traffic, but you're also gonna monetize it through our ad Texas, stack, and we're gonna get a piece on the backend.

Brian:

and when those incentives change, then, you know, behavior tends to, to to follow.

Brian:

I'm interested in like, in, you know, obviously AI is a big topic right now.

Brian:

And how do you think that is gonna change the nature?

Brian:

Of marketing.

Brian:

I was reading Andrew Chen had

Brian:

this, um, you know, the, he's a vc, right?

Kyle:

Yeah.

Kyle:

Yeah.

Kyle:

I think, Andreessen, right?

Brian:

yeah, I think he said Andreessen.

Brian:

but he had, he had this, you know, Substack, post where he was talking all about how AI is gonna collapse the funnel and, and, and everything.

Brian:

And it's going to really.

Brian:

Overturn marketing, and I think it makes some sense.

Brian:

I mean, my, I, I believe that, you know, I, I always just go back to like history and I'm like, advertising always finds a way, and it's a subset

Brian:

of marketing, but I mean, I, I just do not see, you know, marketers being like, oh, well, you know, we're just gonna let the machines take over.

Brian:

Like, no, that's just not how this works.

Brian:

How do you, from where you sit, like how, how do you think about the impacts that AI is gonna have on, on what you do?

Kyle:

Yeah, I think there's the, the acquisition side and then there's the internal side, right?

Kyle:

Just being able to use these tools, I think on the acquisition side, I, I read that, I read that, as I think it was like, all marketing sucks right now, right?

Kyle:

And.

Brian:

Yeah.

Kyle:

I think that I, he's not wrong.

Kyle:

We're all facing the same headwinds, searches, unreliable.

Kyle:

Digital ads are expensive, audiences are fragmented across all these channels.

Kyle:

And I do think you have to start to figure out, okay, well what, where can my strengths be and where can I build up, my capabilities where.

Kyle:

We've started to, I think one from HubSpot, the software company, media and brand become a moat is like, you just need to be able to attract audiences through great content and eventually introduce them to your software.

Kyle:

but for the media arm and like building up our, our media brands, the hustle.

Kyle:

Master's in marketing, mindstream.

Kyle:

We've actually done a lot of hard work and just like personal relationship building.

Kyle:

So I mentioned our creator program.

Kyle:

We did deals with over 200 creators last year.

Kyle:

We're figuring out how do we partner with creators on either co-creation or co-promotion of each other's media products to drive.

Kyle:

cross promotion and subscriptions.

Kyle:

We're starting to reach out to adjacent publishers.

Kyle:

So, we've done some, you know, basic swaps with upside and SE before, but, we're actually having conversations with.

Kyle:

Sherwood and Adweek and like, how can we actually like work together because we have adjacent audiences.

Kyle:

We could probably bring our capabilities together and and develop something our audiences would be really interested in.

Kyle:

And the last piece is I do think social's playing a little, like a little, it's having a little bit of a comeback.

Kyle:

I think we've seen organic social as more of like a reach and engagement play, but we're getting.

Kyle:

One of our newsletters, 10% of their monthly subscribers are coming from organic social.

Kyle:

We're seeing folks who are engaging with the content and saying, I want more.

Kyle:

Right?

Kyle:

And they're, we're giving them that path to go, subscribe to a newsletter.

Kyle:

So I do think it's harder work, like it comes down to the relationship building and getting on calls and figuring out how to work together.

Kyle:

And the last piece is, I. I do you go say, go back in history.

Kyle:

I have this copy of a masterclass in brand planning that sits on my desk.

Kyle:

So Stephen King was this like JWT strategist from the seventies and eighties, and it comes down to like, can I build a brand?

Kyle:

People seek out.

Kyle:

They wanna come to you and, they wanna consume your content.

Kyle:

They wanna understand who you are and what you have to offer.

Kyle:

and I think we're going from a, an era where marketers, you know, can measure conversion rate ROAS in their sleep, and now they're gonna have to, to write some headlines and figure out how do I do some more

Kyle:

brand building

Brian:

it's, it's back to the basics.

Kyle:

it's back to basics for

Kyle:

sure.

Kyle:

' Brian: cause I just feel like there's been, it's just been a weird blip in time that I feel like a lot of marketing has become like following numbers on dashboards and it's

Kyle:

like not rolling up your sleeves and building a brand and doing all the David Ogilvy stuff that like, has been around forever.

Kyle:

Like, I don't know, you, you gotta market.

Kyle:

That's the answer.

Kyle:

so that I I could not agree more.

Kyle:

gimme your, take on like B2B marketing, right.

Kyle:

It doesn't get a lot of like focus.

Kyle:

And like I, yeah, this, it's, it's, I guess it's my full-time job, right?

Kyle:

Like, I mean, like, you know, I'm, I'm like

Kyle:

At this fight.

Kyle:

Yeah.

Brian:

time, I mean, this is the first time I've, you know, in the last few years, this is the first time I've been sort of on, you know, talking to the marketers themselves about like their jobs and what they want.

Brian:

So this is educational for me, but give me your take on the sort of state of B2B marketing.

Kyle:

Gosh.

Kyle:

Well, I, I do think it's in, the state of trying to figure itself out again, like we've been talking about.

Kyle:

I, I had someone comment on a LinkedIn post this week around, you know, what should they be studying, to be able to kind of navigate this.

Kyle:

And I, I'd said.

Kyle:

As a B2B marketer, I'm studying B2C for brand building and promotion and I'm studying B2B media for content.

Kyle:

I'm not necessarily interested in what other B2B marketers are doing 'cause I don't think, it focuses on like those fundamentals you and I are talking about.

Kyle:

I think a lot of times B2B brands talk about the functionality of the product.

Kyle:

They come up with some ai, superpowered, whatever, copy to try and get folks, to download something instead of just talking to them like a human and

Kyle:

being able to offer them value, whether that's in the form of a newsletter, like the Hustle, a YouTube video that teaches 'em something.

Kyle:

But I think B2B marketers are trying to figure that out right now, is just like, how do I. Balance my mix that was dominated by a decade of performance marketing and now I

Kyle:

need to actually build a brand, be top of mind for folks and then get folks to, you know, consider me when they're ready to buy software.

Kyle:

but I'm, I'm studying B2C and I'm studying B2B media at this point.

Brian:

Yeah.

Brian:

I mean, it's hard because like a lot, you know, the, I mean, the old joke about like, Salesforce is like, it's a company like everyone knows, but no one knows what they do.

Brian:

Like, I mean, that's the old, like, joke around that.

Brian:

But I mean, a lot of like, I know like the ad tech world for instance, or, and a lot of like.

Brian:

A lot of the language just sort of runs together, like in how they sort of describe themselves.

Brian:

Like, I mean, it would be, you know, you take the logo on 'em and the words are just like ordered a little bit differently and it can be hard to, you know, it's a different type of challenge.

Brian:

And I do think though, it comes down to that they used to call speeds and feeds, right?

Brian:

Like where you're just, you're just talking about, you know, the product specs, in the marketing rather than.

Brian:

You know, what it enables you to do.

Brian:

It's not the same as as marketing Coke, right?

Brian:

But, you know, there is a promise to using these products, and that's, that's sort of the, the overall basics of it, I guess.

Kyle:

Yeah.

Kyle:

Yeah.

Kyle:

I mean, I like going back in history, like you mentioned and studying B2C.

Kyle:

It, it, there's the functional benefits of your product, but then there's kind of this emotional, benefits as well.

Kyle:

Like what does it enable you to do?

Kyle:

and I think just B2B marketers are gonna have to get more exposure to that world.

Kyle:

Like a book I read recently was, Emily Hayward from Red Antler and how they built up the Casper brand, how they built up the Hatch brand, and just

Kyle:

thinking, like, learning how they think through that positioning, that messaging, that value emotion plays a big component of it, which counts.

Kyle:

Sounds kind of weird for B2B, but if you can make things easy for people, if you can help them do their jobs better, if you can help them grow their business, there is a, a feeling with that, right?

Kyle:

you just have to figure out how do you communicate that.

Brian:

So within B2B marketing, like which channels are you most bullish on right now?

Kyle:

I am most bullish on YouTube and creator partnerships for us right now.

Kyle:

YouTube, I just think.

Kyle:

One, everybody knew like, oh, YouTube's the second largest search engine.

Kyle:

Right?

Kyle:

But I think you're now seeing just audiences shift there.

Kyle:

Like you mentioned earlier, it is tv, right?

Kyle:

I, Nielsen said what?

Kyle:

It's number two streaming platform in the US behind Disney or something like that.

Kyle:

So at this point I. It's a massive search engine.

Kyle:

Audiences are going there in droves.

Kyle:

They're watching on their tv, they're watching on their phone, they're watching on their desktop VI videos.

Kyle:

The medium people are, are preferring and I, I think you have to invest there and I don't think you can go on YouTube with, you know, product videos, product demos necessarily, unless.

Kyle:

You're someone who's like specifically a user of a product and trying to learn how to use it.

Kyle:

I think you gotta study the formats that work on YouTube and like look at creators and how do they draw an audience in?

Kyle:

How do they develop explainers?

Kyle:

How do they develop their hooks?

Kyle:

Like B2B is gonna have to start to study that and just offer value and video formats and then creators.

Kyle:

I know folks are like talking about influencer marketing.

Kyle:

I do think.

Kyle:

B2B marketers have to be more strategic in how they approach, the creators and really work with folks that run media products and have good alignment with you.

Kyle:

Like they have good alignment on the audience, the topical coverage, the editorial values.

Kyle:

There's someone you actually wanna partner with and work with.

Kyle:

Maybe you'll make something together.

Kyle:

I do think it's a miss to continue going to creators and saying, Hey, I want this one-off post or this one-off video sponsorship.

Kyle:

It may work for you for, you know, a, a week or a month, but it's not gonna add value to the business long term.

Kyle:

And so I'm, I'm bullish on partnering with creators and doing more 12, 24 month, 36 month partnerships to figure out how do we work together to reach these audiences.

Brian:

How about in person?

Brian:

Because I, a lot of B2B is in person.

Brian:

I mean, there's like a trillion B2B like mar events out there.

Brian:

I don't know, maybe, maybe it's different in your, in your field, but like in like the ad like media world, like I, I do think there's some people that only, they're like organisms are like 70% croissant and red wine at this point.

Brian:

'cause they, this, they've been at, they've been at events basically for most of their adult life.

Kyle:

Yeah.

Kyle:

I mean, I. Yes, on events.

Kyle:

And I, I think, at least for me, like, HubSpot obviously has a large inbound conference, which I know,

Brian:

I went to it

Kyle:

the past and like it's, um, fantastic event where we're, where we're actually seeing massive, massive, I think it was, gosh, 12, 12, 15,000 folks in Boston last year or something like that.

Brian:

I was on a, I was on a stage on a session and I was so far away from the other person.

Brian:

It was like so cavernous.

Brian:

I couldn't, I couldn't really understand everything like that, that what they were saying.

Brian:

But like, that's when you know you're true professional.

Brian:

You answer the question you

Kyle:

right.

Kyle:

You're like, I think he said this.

Kyle:

I got it, I got it.

Brian:

God.

Kyle:

but those big events, I mean, no doubt they have value and they're very valuable for HubSpot software customers.

Kyle:

It's a great place for us to engage with customers.

Kyle:

On the media side, we're starting to do smaller events.

Kyle:

So the Hustle is doing an event in New York City.

Kyle:

this quarter we're talking Mindstream, which is our AI newsletter.

Kyle:

A partnership with the Next Wave, our ai, podcast and like, can we do something in San Diego with Matt Wolf?

Kyle:

and we did something with Sam and Sean in my first million last year.

Kyle:

I think we had a thousand folks show up for a live recording.

Kyle:

So I do think that becomes a bigger role and, but it's more of, I think it's these like small, intimate.

Kyle:

Gatherings.

Kyle:

And I do think the programming has to hit, right?

Kyle:

It can't be, Hey, I am gonna offer you a presentation and then try to sell you software.

Kyle:

I don't think that's what we're trying to do.

Kyle:

I think it's like offer folks access, offer them insider interviews, offer 'em profiles, do do a live recording.

Kyle:

and just.

Kyle:

Create an environment for folks to, to get together and talk.

Kyle:

I, the last thing I'll say on this is like, COVID forced everybody to work at home.

Kyle:

And then a lot of companies said, you can work remote forever, and you don't get that office engagement like you used to.

Kyle:

And I think these small events, these local regional events give people that opportunity and they're incredibly engaged, right?

Kyle:

They, they look forward to it.

Kyle:

They wanna buy a ticket and attend.

Kyle:

So I do think that's gonna play a bigger role over the next couple years.

Brian:

Okay.

Brian:

So how do you, are you surprised that more companies haven't like, followed this playbook?

Brian:

I mean, yeah, there are examples out there, right?

Brian:

But like.

Brian:

In my view, most have not.

Brian:

Like I like, you know, I think when the hustle, when you guys acquired the hustle, it opened a lot of eyes and, and there was this thought, oh, this is like a new, you know, new wave.

Brian:

And I'm like, Hmm.

Brian:

There've been like some here and there, but I don't think it's been like some massive trend.

Kyle:

No, I don't think so.

Kyle:

I mean, I, you saw some, some acquisitions, right?

Brian:

and.

Brian:

some that

Kyle:

with Robin

Kyle:

Hood and.

Brian:

bought one and that didn't work.

Kyle:

Yeah.

Kyle:

Yeah.

Kyle:

indie Hackers, I think Stripe had had purchased Indie Hackers, kept them fully independent.

Kyle:

They have a great product.

Kyle:

I, I do think it comes down to like, are you willing to make the long-term investment?

Kyle:

Like, are you willing to say, Hey, we're gonna build audience.

Kyle:

And that takes years.

Kyle:

And I also think it's important for.

Kyle:

All the things we talked about at the beginning around do we give folks editorial independence?

Kyle:

Are we willing to build an audience?

Kyle:

Are we willing to build media brands?

Kyle:

Because the media brands and the creators are what attract the audience, like nobody's subscribing to, like a corporate, newsletter or a corporate podcast, right?

Kyle:

They're, they're attracted to the talent, the practitioners, the, the writers, the editors.

Kyle:

It's, it's a lot like recruiting that talent, bringing 'em in, building up a talent roster, committing to it for years.

Kyle:

Like, I just think brands don't realize how much goes into building great media products.

Kyle:

And, it's, it's something we've completely believed in since 2021, but I do think it's a hard playbook to replicate.

Brian:

and I think that media sensibility sometimes is just missing from a lot of like technology companies, to be honest with you.

Brian:

I mean, like there's a lot going on that's super interesting and like great assets, like we talked about Andreessen like.

Brian:

you know, in technology companies, but sometimes, like, I mean, I think of like, yeah, I've nothing against, I've, I think former,

Brian:

former colleagues who have worked there now, but like, you know, the trade desk tries to do like the current, which is a news thing.

Brian:

And to me, I'm like, you guys don't do news.

Brian:

And I'm like, anytime you're gonna do news, you know, If I'm reading on the current about like the Google getting broken up and the fact that I'm like, okay, yeah, it's from the trade desk.

Brian:

Like, I mean, come on, there's 0% chance I'm going to read that and not like, you know, they're not going to present something.

Brian:

I could be wrong.

Brian:

Maybe I've missed the ones, but I just think, I think news is something that, that is probably less like you guys don't do news, right?

Kyle:

challenging.

Kyle:

I mean, if you read the Hustle Daily, we definitely bring you the latest headlines, in business and tech and, you know, we'll cover the Fortune 500.

Kyle:

We will, cover big tech.

Kyle:

But I think we're more interested in doing the unconventional business stories, right?

Kyle:

Like the gas station, pizza Empire, or the Millionaire Truck drivers.

Kyle:

There's, there's

Brian:

Well, you're looking to get like a demographic or psychographic or something.

Brian:

Not like that's the, the sort of difference of this sort of heavy handed marketing approach where it's like you're basically marketing or doing pr version of marketing.

Brian:

D you know about you.

Brian:

I don't know.

Brian:

It's you're mix the chocolate and peanut butter too much.

Brian:

I think when you're in the news.

Kyle:

I, yeah, agreed.

Kyle:

Agreed.

Kyle:

I think it's a, a tough balance and, like you said, we're, we're not necessarily on that, that news cycle, we're, it's part of our mix at this point.

Brian:

Yeah.

Brian:

Okay, cool.

Brian:

Well, let's leave it there.

Brian:

Kyle, any, any sort of final thoughts, things that we did not get to?

Kyle:

No, no, I appreciate it.

Kyle:

I, hope, you know, hope folks are interested in like how we built out that creator program and the balance for sure.

Brian:

I think the stuff that you guys are doing is like really like forward thinking and and it is also, as I said, like the opening.

Brian:

I think it's just indicative to how the media world is totally decentralized and there's so many d like everybody I. Everybody is in it.

Brian:

Everybody gets to sort of compete for attention and influence and I think that makes it exciting.

Kyle:

Yeah.

Kyle:

Yeah, it's been fun over the last couple years for sure.

Brian:

All right, cool.

Brian:

Well, thanks again.

Kyle:

Yeah, that was great.

Kyle:

thanks for doing this, you know, late on a Friday before the weekend.

Kyle:

but it was good seeing you.

Kyle:

Let me know if you need anything.

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